The Top 50 Advantages of Junk Rig

[gdavis]

Well there's some cool news. What is Annie Hill sailing these days? Still Badger? I thought I heard a while ago she and peter(?) were building a catamaran in s. Africa or something like that. I don't think it is fair or right to compare a junk rig to a Bermudan rig when the Bermuda was basically developed for racing class sail boats. Lets compare them to gaffers and other work rigs and we will see that they hold their own! China Cloud is all the proof I need, I work with a guy who sailed on it several times and had nothing but positive things to say about it.And truth be told I just love them and don't really care what critics and doomsayers have to say about junk rigs..................peace out.....g

 

[David Tyler]

Well there's some cool news. What is Annie Hill sailing these days? Still Badger? I thought I heard a while ago she and peter(?) were building a catamaran in s. Africa or something like that.

She and Pete built the catamaran China Moon in SA, but then split up. She married again, and sailed aboard the gaff-rigged Ironbark (and hated the rig, but gained a CCA Blue Water Medal from the experience). She now lives contentedly alone on her own small boat, Fantail, a Raven 26 that she converted to junk rig herself.

To keep more up to date, you might consider joining the JRA, where Annie is just completing a year on the committee as Sailing Secretary.

 

[CT249]

Umm, maybe it's wrong to say that the rig "struggles to gain acceptance", when boats rigged that way have just been given several prestigious awards?

 

[David Tyler]

Among open-minded, serious cruising seamen, acceptance is easier to gain. The difficulty is with those sailors for whom open-mindedness is a habit that they find it hard to acquire - "I know what I like; now don't try to confuse me with facts". But there's no doubt that awards like these from the RCC will help to raise the profile of the junk rig outside of its own constituency. Also, in the recent past, the award of the Ocean Cruising Club's Rose Medal to myself, if I may be so immodest as to mention it.

 

[Rurudyne]

Junk Bond king Michael Milken never owned a Junk Rigged Boat of his own: Don't be like Michael Milkin and Deal Only in Other People's Junk.

Edit : personally I'm pretty much sold on junk sails, so please don't anyone think that was for anything but attempted humor.

 

[rustybarge]

I posted these four photos to demonstrate how junk sails (or junk-like wing sail) were being used on catamarans. I don't think that any of them are using cambered panels such as those that Arne Kverneland has developed.

Dragon Wings has traditional flat panels.

China Moon may have flexible battens to allow camber, but if so it is not a good system as the camber is least when wind speed is least (and you then want the most camber), and the camber is greatest when the wind speed is greatest (and you then want the least camber).

Oryx has an experimental split junk rig ('jiblets' and mainsail) with half-wishbone battens. It didn't work so well, and Pete has replaced them with something closer to the junk-wing sail like on PHA.

PHA, (Paix Harmonie Amour --> Peace Harmony Love) is a junk-soft wing sail with wishbone batten foresail and articulated straight batten aftsail. Bertrand now has a 46' Wharram, called Grand PHA, also with soft wing sails. He is sailing it west-bound around the world from France, and now is in Australia.

This is an example of one of Arne's cambered panel junk sails, maybe on Johanna?

http://s10.postimg.org/mpkylqgyh/arne4.jpg[/IMG
[B]
Junk sails typically have very little stress on the sail cloth as the weight is carried by the bolt ropes (or bolt webbing) at the luff and leech. Because the weight is carried by the bolt ropes camber can be built into the sail panels and the panels will 'billow' into shape with relatively little wind. Also, because there is little stress on the sail cloth compared to a Bermuda-style sail, lighter-weight cloth can be used, and if a sail is torn the sail will often still be quite functional.

You can also make cambered panel junk sails with vertical seams, using a different technique from that promoted by Arne.[/B]

[IMG]http://www.asianreviewofbooks.com/new/pics/junksails4.jpg[/IMG
Note torn, holey sails and diagonal seams.

[img]http://www.asianreviewofbooks.com/new/pics/junksails2.jpg[/
Just had to add another photo demonstrating that seams can be put wherever/however you please. :)

[IMG]http://www.100days100paintings.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/090210-junk-raft.jpg[/IMG
A "modern junk". :rolleyes: <LOL>
[url]http://www.100days100paintings.com/%E2%80%9Cfloating-islands%E2%80%9D-of-garbage-in-our-oceans-the-junk-raft-project/[/url][/QUOTE]


Thanks for that explanation, it's brings into focus the origins of the junk sail.

I can imagine a scenario in the Far East where a local fisherman had some lengths of rope, some long thin sticks and some old sacks.....

...and he was thinking to himself ' how can I make a sail from this cr*p'

Turns out he invented a simple to make sail that's dead easy to repair and still works when it gets ripped... :)

 

[CT249]

Among open-minded, serious cruising seamen, acceptance is easier to gain. The difficulty is with those sailors for whom open-mindedness is a habit that they find it hard to acquire - "I know what I like; now don't try to confuse me with facts". But there's no doubt that awards like these from the RCC will help to raise the profile of the junk rig outside of its own constituency. Also, in the recent past, the award of the Ocean Cruising Club's Rose Medal to myself, if I may be so immodest as to mention it.

But how exactly does one determine whether a person has;

1- not taken on an idea because they are "closed minded", or;
2- not taken on an idea because the idea has not been proven to be a better idea by objective facts; or
3- they have not taken on an idea because while that idea may work perfectly well for other people, it doesn't suit their own particular circumstances?

People who are 'into' fairly unusual rigs, like Eric Sponberg, have noted that many of the claims made in this thread for junks are over-blown or incorrect. So maybe it's not that people have closed minds - maybe it's just that the rig does not suit many people (which is not to say it's not great for others).

 

[Avoid Rocks]

It would be interesting to see a statistic on those who go sailing with a junk rig for the first time and their reactions and opinions before and after. I'd venture to guess that people come out of the actual experience with a positive mindset the majority of the time.

And with all due respect to Mr Sponberg, I don't find a lot of his arguments very convincing. To his defense though, the initial list is a bit zealous, mainly because it's a compilation of advantages submitted by different JRA members, so it's bound to be a) opinionated and b) somewhat repetitive (but this was already stated in the OP).

COUNTERPOINT BY ERIC SPONBERG

Introductory remarks: The test of my remarks is based on the claim by the OP that the junk rig is “the best rig for short-handed ocean cruising.” First of all, there are a total of 62 claims—an original 53 and an extra 9. Yes, there are a few duplicates, but we’ll not be bothered by those for the moment. I found just four advantages unique just to junk rigs—14, 15, 22, and 39, but in my opinion, these would not raise the junk rig to “best for short-handed cruising status” because they apply only to a few aspects of rigs and cruising.

For example, I find it interesting that he doesn't acknowledge #1 as an advantage:

"Junk rig is much easier to handle
downwind: With its reluctance to
gybe until you are sailing well by the
lee, with the fact that the sail is fully
squared out so that it is working
efficiently and with the ease with
which you can change from running
to reaching to beating, without
having to handle guys, poles or
vangs, the junk rig is much easier to
sail."

Also things like #2 (rig safety, not having to go on deck) is certainly an advantage, even if not unique. I don't recall this being claimed to be a list of unique features, but advantages compared to most other rigs? If we accept #2 on those premises, we should immediately also accept #3 (see the bottom of the post), #4, #5, #6, #7, etc...... oh.

#39: Low stress in junk rig sail cloth—no argument there, but so what?

The ability to use less expensive low-tech materials? No heavy boom needed to withstand the pressure of the huge tensioned canvas?

In the third group, which count to 24 and which I’ll call the “AllBies”, apply to All Boats. There is a proviso here that a boat with a conventional rig can be equipped with reliable equipment that can function as well as a junk rig. Reefing mechanisms come to mind, such as the Dutchman system, roller furling headsails, and boom furlers for mainsails.

Again, not unique, but certainly an advantage vs. the majority of today's sailboats. Also, systems like roller furling and boom furlers certainly have their disadvantages as well (not familiar with the Dutchman system), the biggest ones being cost and ease of repair. And roller furling isn't very nice in heavy weather either.

The last group, the Questionables, count to 5:

#3: Sail rips have minimal impact, and the description refers to longitudinal rips. That’s dubious. All rips have some deleterious effect—they can split a junk sail just as easily as a conventional sail, and in either case, repairs of a sort are necessary. Get out the ditty bag and start sewing.

#8: Ease of repair. Well, that depends on how good you are at repairing sails and spars and what kinds of tools and supplies you carry on board. A properly equipped conventionally rigged boat will probably be as easy to repair as a junk rig.

#3: A sail rip in the majority of other sail designs will render the sail useless. A junk rig is held up by either boltropes or duplicate canvas at the luff and the leech, which keeps it from ripping apart. If the rip is big enough you can just tie off the two battens surrounding the ripped panel together and keep on sailing as usual.

#8: Accepted, but given that practically all junk rigs are built by hand, by the owner, he/she inherently has the ability to repair them without further training. Like building your own boat vs buying one.

Etc etc. Bottom line: The junk rig was claimed to be the "best rig for cruising", backed with a list of advantages. I'd be curious to see someone compile a similar list defending the bermuda (or any other) rig in the same fashion, with advantages (not necessarily unique) listed, and not end up with a very expensive, complicated and high-tech rig.

 

[David Tyler]

But how exactly does one determine whether a person has;

1- not taken on an idea because they are "closed minded", or;
2- not taken on an idea because the idea has not been proven to be a better idea by objective facts; or
3- they have not taken on an idea because while that idea may work perfectly well for other people, it doesn't suit their own particular circumstances?

People who are 'into' fairly unusual rigs, like Eric Sponberg, have noted that many of the claims made in this thread for junks are over-blown or incorrect. So maybe it's not that people have closed minds - maybe it's just that the rig does not suit many people (which is not to say it's not great for others).

"I've tried it and it doesn't suit my kind of sailing"
"I've tried it and I don't like the way it handles"
"I've tried it and I don't like the performance"
"I've seen it and I don't want a rig looking like that on my boat, thank you!"
- open-minded.

"I've never given it a moment's thought, that there might be a more suitable rig for me than the one I use"
"I've never tried it, but others say it's no good, so I won't"
"I've never tried it, to find out for myself whether the claims made for it are over-blown or incorrect"
"It can't be any good, if the major boat builders don't fit it as standard"
- Not so open-minded.

 

[David Tyler]

Etc etc. Bottom line: The junk rig was claimed to be the "best rig for cruising", backed with a list of advantages. I'd be curious to see someone compile a similar list defending the bermuda (or any other) rig in the same fashion, with advantages (not necessarily unique) listed, and not end up with a very expensive, complicated and high-tech rig.

Yes- please could a bermudan rig advocate start a thread entitled "The top 50 advantages of the bermudan rig for cruising" (racers are forced to use it by their various rating and handicapping rules, so there's no need to put in anything pertaining strictly to racing). By all means repeat yourself, and add in frivolous and tongue-in-cheek entries, if you need to do that to reach the magic 50.

 

[Rurudyne]

"I've tried it and it doesn't suit my kind of sailing"
"I've tried it and I don't like the way it handles"
"I've tried it and I don't like the performance"
"I've seen it and I don't want a rig looking like that on my boat, thank you!"
- open-minded.

"I've never given it a moment's thought, that there might be a more suitable rig for me than the one I use"
"I've never tried it, but others say it's no good, so I won't"
"I've never tried it, to find out for myself whether the claims made for it are over-blown or incorrect"
"It can't be any good, if the major boat builders don't fit it as standard"
- Not so open-minded.

"I wish I could have a decent sized sidewheeler yacht whose lines could attractively handle some junk rigged masts." -- the Super Contrarian

 

[motorbike]

Junks rigs are oddballs in yachting culture. Shorthanded cruising is easily done without needing a junk rig. Despite protestations they dont sail to windward as well as a marconi rig and never will. End of short sad story

 

[David Tyler]

Junks rigs are oddballs in yachting culture. Shorthanded cruising is easily done without needing a junk rig. Despite protestations they dont sail to windward as well as a marconi rig and never will. End of short sad story

Are you a shorthanded cruising sailor? Have you sailed a modern junk rig alongside a marconi/bermudan rig? Do you have personal experience to back up your claims and observations?

 

[motorbike]

Yes, no and yes to your questions. The junk rig is like Morgan threewheelers, sort of cool and within a certain set of needs it has utility. But the world has moved on with sail design and materials development and junk rigs many disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

You can sail them and love them, but when 50 advantages and no disadvantages pops up in a thread then the alarm bells go off. NOTHING in sailing in my experience has 50 reasons why its better, even a well built 26ft yacht does not have 50 advantages over a Mcgregor 26 without at least one point conceded to the other side! When you have a hammer all solutions look like a nail!

 

[David Tyler]

So:
"I've tried it and it doesn't suit my kind of sailing"
"I've tried it and I don't like the way it handles"
"I've tried it and I don't like the performance"
all apply to you, motorbike? Fair enough. I have no problem with that.