The relationship between crew, passengers and energy consumption

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by chrisyk, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. chrisyk
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    chrisyk Junior Member

    It has been discovered that in domestic environments, ECIs (Energy consumption indicators) have been able to reduce energy consumption by 15 - 20%. It is expected that this could translate also into the marine environment.

    However I wanted to ask the community on what there thoughts are on crew behaviour and how this may impinge on energy consumption. Furthermore, are there any ways that the designer, through clever design and a smart GA (general arrangement) could affect behaviour that minimizes energy consumption. Could the crew be trained in a particular way that conserves energy but does not alter the quality of service they provide? Could crew schedules be managed to operate in such a way that reduces consumption?

    Any opinions would be much appreciated.
  2. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Its a nice thought, but Ive never know a megayacht crew that gave a d am about spending the owners money on energy. Combine this with ignorance and you have a difficult target. I was recently on a 50 meter yacht. The boat is in winter mode with minimum crew. All systems were running.................they told me that by running the climate control system they kept the boat smelling nice and fresh. Even the yachts refrigerated garbage room was active. At night the yacht is illuminated like Las Vegas.

    Officially there is ....SEEMP – Ship Energy Efficiency Management Plan.

    This new requirement should make crew aware of energy use. Whether they can reduce it is a good question.
  3. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Michael has it for many. Simply put, those that "need" to consider these costs are probably in over the financial heads. Yachting by it's very nature, is a discretionary funds experience. Yes, you'd think that most would be concerned about energy management, but in the overall cost of yacht ownership, gaining or losing 15% on a relatively insignificant portion of the annual budget, for the vessel, seems a bit petty. Don't get me wrong, I know a few that are quite careful, but they are careful about everything and most call these folks "tight". I currently own a 37' powerboat, in a covered slip and a 65' sailboat on the hard at the moment, but usually berthed. The "energy costs" associated with these, aren't a very big percentage of the bill for these yachts. Of course the powerboat has a understandably higher fuel bill, but it's relatively comparable with sail replacement on a regular schedule. As far as dock side and self generated energy use, I wish the rest of the list was as manageable.
  4. chrisyk
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    chrisyk Junior Member

    The rationale for energy conservation

    My most recent activities have been in conducting energy audits on large super yacht vessels. At the moment I have been focusing in the private yacht sector and found that on a 110m yacht, HVAC systems equate to over 50% of the axillary power. The auxiliaries equate to nearly 22% of the vessels CO2 emission.

    So it is interesting to here Michael refer to its use without my mention and even more so in winter "so as the boat smells nice".

    Furthermore on commercial cruise ships there have been accounts where air conditioning systems have been left on with the intent of ensuring that the room will be cool when the occupants return. In the mean time, the HVAC system has been left on for 5 - 8 hours providing cool air for 0 occupants.

    Other studies I am involved in, suggests that the operational profile of the yacht if fully understood could help completely change the design of the yacht and thus energy consumption. I will be releasing a paper on this shortly if any of you are interested.

    I have currently been authorized to conduct an experiment on a cruise ship around the Mediterranean, where remote sensors collect information regarding occupancy, humidity, temperature air flow etc at various locations around the boat to understand the use of energy and wasted heat energy, in relation to the operational profile of the boat.

    Its a bit off topic, but I would really like to do something similar on a private yacht. How might you suggest I approach owners... or is it a completely outrageous idea? I believe that such information would be a great use to designers.

    In response to PAR I can completely see your perspective and you are right! Some owners do not have any concern what so ever about the environment or how much money they could save. This would take a considerable change in their own personal ethics.

    However, I intend to adopt a 'whole systems' design approach to my research and would like to wring multiple benefits from the reduction of energy consumption, which would allow me to pitch it to owners in a different way.

    For example green yachts tend to have greater resale value and lower operational costs, makeing more profit for the owner if they decide to charter the yacht. In addition by transfering innovation from the architectural industry I have been able to reduce the size of a conventional HVAC system & significantly recovery what would have been ducting into occupiable space and thus increasing the internal volume of the yacht.

    In addition to that, there seems to be a growth in "Green Market Sector", within the marine industry and so perhaps there is a factor that I am not takeing into consideration, perhaps some yacht owners do have an ethical responsibility for the environment? Or perhaps it displays them in good light?

    I am unsure at the moment, but what I am sure about it that some design practices which operate on the motive of elegant frugality, wring multiple benefits from successful incorporating, resource intensive design strategies. I am unsure what these benefits may be at the moment but I Very much appreciate your feedback and comments.
  5. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    You could try this.

    Install a electricy consumption meter in the crew mess that reads out in Euros not KWH , then tie the crews yearly bonus to the amount of Euros saved. Money talks

    Something like this on a big screen .
  6. chrisyk
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    chrisyk Junior Member

    Energy Consumption Indicators

    This is a very good Idea Michael. I would imagine that would provide the motive for crew to opp orate efficiently. Any suggestions as to how the Interior GA or design of the vessel may facilitate them in achieving this?

    It is interesting to know that information feedback systems would provide the wealth and depth of data required to make significant changes to operation. Its a shame this information is not available to designers.
  7. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Then you must overcome this.

    Yachts run their generators 24 hours a day at the dock because suitable power is not available. I own a Mediterranean berth fitted with 400vca 63amp 3phase and its not enough to power the standard 30m superyacht on summertime load.

    Since their gens are so big and not running with the proper loading , they have to load them with those load bank environmental monsters.

    First make these things illegal, then find an eco smart solution that would pump the unused electricity back into the main municipal power grid.

    Perhaps give the owner carbon credits for his waste electricity.

    To get a feel for whats going on with big yachts you may want to petition the PYA...Professional Yachtsman Association in France ...with a questionnaire concerning energy use and management. These are the guys operating these monsters.
  8. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Faaaaarrk!!! I run my air conditioned house, my machine shop loaded with 3 phase tooling and welders on a grid feed of that size! Including a 25HP air compressor!!!

    One suggestion - back feed the grid using a grid tie inverter off of the megayacht generators. Not sure how the grid is set up to take this but it's everywhere for PV panel input so technically feasible. That would load the generators up to their efficient fuel usage point and make money in the process.

  9. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    There is a lot of things working against you in this. Many times, the guests will be arriving from an assortment of places and what they consider comfortable is determined in a large part by where they were the previous week.

    If they are already acclimatized to the local climate, then there are some well understood strategies to expand the range of comfort conditions and lower the percentage of the population that would report discomfort, or lower the energy needed to provide a particular design comfort level.

    However, if you are faced with a group arriving from who knows where, you have to basically do the exact opposite things in order to get rapid convergence of the guests comfort zones. And these happen to be more in line with the revenue generating ambitions of the operation. It is standard practice to place more emphasis of comfort in the areas that net the most money. Bars and casinos usually have excellent climate control, and they need it because older, sedentary, inebriated people have a considerably lower thermal tolerance than young, active, sober ones.

    This brings to mind some funny stories of Canadians visiting the Everglades National Park on a balmy March weekend- dewpoint around 86 at night and condensation sheeting down the walls when I responded to their call that the AC wasn't working. I knew the only people to be running the AC like that would be Canadians, so I stopped by the walk-in cooler and and got the parka and mittens we wear when stocking it. Sure enough, 68 degrees in there. The carpet was squishy. These places weren't real air tight, and there was a 20 knot tradewind outside. So I'm standing there in a parka and mittens while they tell me they can't sleep because it's too hot. I failed to convince them that it would be much nicer if it was 15 degrees warmer and water wasn't pooling on the floor. There was actually a cloud formation at one end of the room.
  10. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Phil that's's 5C- 40F today in Vancouver,walking around very comfy in jeans and a light fleece shirt.

    Last week I saw a Florida plated car pull up, out comes a family with parkas zipped up to the neck,mitts on, kids have toques pulled over their ears,and they bolted into the restaurant to get out of the terrible cold.

    Came in,pulled off parkas to reveal thick sweaters,scarves,etc
  11. rxcomposite
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    rxcomposite Senior Member


    Why not refer to ISO standard.
    "Energy consumption in buildings – including climate control, appliances, lighting, and other installed equipment – represents nearly 40% of the world’s total energy use. In recent years, rising living expenses and environmental concerns have driven many homeowners to seek new ways to cut down on their household energy use. In response, International Organization for Standardization (ISO) Technical Committee (TC)205 ,Building environment design, has developed a new International Standard,ISO 13153:2012 ,Framework of the design process for energy-saving single-family residential and small commercial buildings, that provides a framework for effective consideration of energy-saving approaches to the building of residences and small commercial buildings during the different stages of the design process.
    Under ISO 13153, the predicted reduction of energy consumption in a given residence is used to determine an “energy consumption ratio,” allowing for meaningful comparisons of actual energy use and potential energy savings between different design approaches. The standard is applicable to the heating, cooling, and lighting systems of new buildings, as well as hot water, ventilation, and other relevant sources of energy consumption. As part of a growing group of ISO standards for energy efficiency in buildings, ISO 13153 is expected to assist designers in making effective, informed decisions about the use of various energy-saving technologies in light of the specific design conditions and environmental circumstances affecting each individual residence or commercial structure.
    ISO 13153 also includes three annexes, which are intended to make it easier to make effective use of the standard. The annexes provide examples of energy-saving elemental technologies and specification options; design guidelines, including details on energy consumption ratios for elemental technologies; and notes on the experimental estimation of systems, based on actual conditions of usage."

  12. Perm Stress
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    Perm Stress Senior Member

    Having worked on not too large yacht on finishing stages of build as consultant and later on as a skipper, I can tell, that (during the build) most common answer to "we will not have enough electricity for it" was "we will put extra batteries" or "we will run a generator".
    Later, in actual use around southern end of Gran Canaria in summer (air >35C), generator and AC was off, because of the noise they create.

    As to financial side of electricity fed to shore from the yacht genset ...
    well, when we count in the purchase/maintenance/service/replacement costs of the genset itself, the systems necessary to run it (forced air supply, for example), not just the fuel, price per kWh will be ridiculously large.
    NO port will pay so much. Never.
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