The perfect Passagemaker? (style within this genre)

Of course Manie.
I am familiar with Dashews Windhorse for long.

And the vessel shown above is not a mini whatsoever....
It is substantially bigger than the FPB 64 and can be done at roughly the same price in Al.

Srimes,

yes, a round bilge boat is much much easier to sell as a hard chine, a multi chine is hard to give away.

Regards
Richard

 

With the PL 74?.....Well I certainly don't think so.....besides I published the first Passagemaker Lite concepts long before Windhorse came along.

One of my thoughts is that the Dashew boats (83 and 64) don't have very people friendly decks. A high flush deck provides good high-angle stability, but Dashew has learned (in 35,000 miles) that's not a huge issue. They may be normal for modern sailing types, but I know that the high bulwarks on Grand Banks boats sell boats to women (who often get deck duty). Wire lifelines and tiny little toerails don't do much for confidence on the deck. I really like the high bulwarks along the side decks, a solid roof overhead so windows and doors can be opened in any weather, and the well protected after deck. The only place to be outside on Windhorse is the Flying Bridge, which also seems unprotected with it's open front, low sides, and plex uppers.

Other differences are the swim step, Windhorse's is tiny and you can't step on to it from the dock, ours is full width of the boat (13' wide) and 30" fore and aft. And it opens to a huge storage garage, not two little lockers but a space full width of the boat, 10' fore and aft, and over 5' deep. That's one locker with 650 cubic feet of storage.....

The ability to carry a good big boat is also vital. The PL 74 can carry a 17' to 17'6" outboard boat on her afterdeck. Boats this big can have great range and take prolonged exploration or fishing trips away from the mothership. But boats this big are heavy, and get scary to load with cranes, so rollers and a winch are the way to go. Not having to tow this big boat everywhere will be worth the price of admission to me.

Those are just a few of the things I was thinking this afternoon........

 

As Daniel already said: this boat is what Dashews should have done.
No matter how you look at it, Windhorse is not the best solution, just the best marketed!

I am absolutely sure I can do this one, performing as good, or better than the FPB (the larger), at substantially lower cost.

Regards
Richard

 

As Bill Garden wrote many years ago, "In hindsight any boat can be improved."

No question the PL74 builds on the well-publicized experience the Dashews have gained with Windhorse......we are the beneficiaries of their work........

 

I still hope on mine too, though not a well publicized.

Bill Garden was right, no doubt.

 

Absolutely

apex1 these threads have been very informative and most enjoyable to read
but I'm confused - is this boat for yourself and the wife
or is it aimed at the open market

my take on "style" for this boat is a smart passage maker for two and to accommodate occasional guests like the children and grand children, in other words a very "personalised" boat / tiny ship
I would love to know what style the New York / Monte Carlo yuppies go for now and is the "gentlemans yacht" applicable for that market

 

I think “heavy’ and “light” by itself are misleading. If concerned about speed and fuel consumption, displacement versus waterline length ratio is what counts.

One way to achieve low displ/ WLL ratio is to use very light materials. That’s expensive.

Other, cheap and simple way is stretching the hull. Keep same displacement, hull width, height, engine … all the expensive stuff. Add, say, 30% more length to the hull and make enterance angle at the bow a little sharper. Boat will be faster and considerably more fuel efficient for the minor cost of 30% more hull material and paint.

And you keep long lasting ruggedness.

Dashew’s are coming from the sailing boat background, (their customers probably as well),so flush deck with a lifelines is fine for them.

(I do like your light series and your interpretation of the Marco Polo by the way).

 

These boats are planned to be offered as a new range of capable Passagemakers on the market Manie. I have no Family left to go cruising with.

And they are (all of these vessels discussed here), thought for a couple, maybe some children, and occasional guests. No crew, and no accommodation for a football team.
It is part of the philosophy that these boats are sailed by just two persons all of the time.

The yuppie will not be attracted by these vessels I am sure, but that is not my target.
I am addressing the seasoned sailboat people at the point when they come to the conclusion, that after decades of pain and frozen asses, the iron spinnacker is the perfect sail. A conclusion almost all of them draw after a while at sea.

These boats are a bit bigger than the required minimum. That is what the skilled sailors want. Elbow room and speed. Both requires length.

That is basically what I preach for 35 years now.
Though, there IS a substantial difference in behaviour between "light" and "heavy" per se!

Regards
Richard

 

I was just "surfing" around and came across this lovely video of a boat remarkably similar to the "gentlemans yacht of the 60's"

just thought you guys would like to see what the "gentlemans yacht of the 60's" looks like on the water

oh well maybe oneday when Richard builds one I can go for a ride

http://www.cheoylee.com.au/pages/page.php?id=36

the design "style" has most definately survived the test of time - sure is beautifull

 

sorry forgot the pic - very much gentlemens yacht

 

Yes these boats have lent from the 60ies style to some extend.
But they are just daycruisers. The typical docksitter looking like old salts toy.

No food storage, laundry etc. No proper bridge layout, but massive accommodation for a whole village. Fortunately there is always a Mc D. to feed the herd, so you don´t need storage.

 

Richard I would like to ask the panel a couple of questions here on your thread, feel free to move it to a new thread if you wish.

The topic is most definately still the same style of this passage maker.
The question is how to - dramatically - cut costs.

What I have gained so far from your threads is
a. Style is the enduring "Gentlemans yacht of the sixties"
b. Built in steel
c. Single engine (which did surprise me a lot)
d. Relative comfort as set out within these threads for two people
e. Equipped to modern standards - radar, AIS, chartplotter, etc. and watermaker (kept to minimums)
f. no gold taps or crazy woodwork - a hands on practical mans boat, not a floating brothel / casino covered in red velvet fit for a woman / prima donna that should be fed to the sharks

Now we take a clean sheet of paper and design the hull to be super fuel efficient (round bilges and we reduce the length to say 12m or 40ft with a maximum speed of 6 knots.

When I was sailing the 11m Beneteau in the Indian ocean at six knots it could get pretty uncomfortable at times close hauling, on a broad reach or running it was very good. Motoring was poor. The point is, six knots is a very good speed especially if you could maintain it 24/7.

I was discussing this "gentlemens yacht" with my mates and we are all of the opinion that we would be 100% happy with 6 knots bang on into a head wind, should the need arise. Some of these guys have been around twice! and they can tell stories of lousy motoring for days.
There are many guys out there that would go to power (iron spinaker) but I am not sure if there is really something on the market for long distance cruising and passage making that is designed around fuel efficiency primarily. As you put it yourself

So there it is, could this be done much much more affordable, not cheap, not **** or nasty, just a good solid well built boat in line with most reasonable modern requirements, comfortable motoring, an old salts boat, he who is tired of the enormous costs of rigging and sails and the theives that operate in that commodity.

 

This is what I have in mind Manie.

At estimated consumptions of roughly 15 - 18 - 28 ltr/hr for the PML - Trawler - Yacht respectively, we are on the very, very economic side for the given length and properties of these boats.

The next step I have in mind, is such craft with the accommodation of a 14m boat, but at 20m Loa.

Regards
Richard

 

This is exactly the approach I took for K5, which I think I posted earlier, but just in case not, here it is again. It was, in fact, my entry into the Passagemaker Magazine design comp - and so intended as a long-term cruiser for a couple, just as you are proposing here. Though in this instance it was primarily for coastal and intra-coastal work, so greater emphasis was placed on drafts (both air and water).
The judges deemed that it was too large for the intended purpose. I disagree, of course, considering that it was only just big enough (62ft). The notion that simply by virtue of length a vessel becomes too complex, too esxpensive, and too difficult to operate is one that I take exception to. Once a vessel exceeds about 40ft - often rather less - it becomes too large to man-handle, and so one must rely on either machinery (thrusters etc) or expertise - and usually both - to maneuver it.

I definitely think you are on the right track Richard

 

I have heard from someone who travelled long distances over the Pacific on a power tri (the Yanmar Endeavor) that the motion was the worst he ever experienced on any boat.

However, in my experience, a power cat is somewhat configured like a sailing cat (narrow hulls, high bridge deck) can have a vastly superior ride in very heavy seas (Pacific hurricane). Pacific Harmony, the one in the picture, does have these characteristics. That particular boat is one sweet, efficient, tremendously well engineered ride.

Smaller cats can have a low bridge deck and still have absolutely incredibly wonderful ride in rough conditions, as the "soup" between the hulls provides a very nice smooth amazingly low impact ride.

The one thing I don't like at all is when the bridge deck is low, such that waves at anchor hit the bridge deck. That is awful! But very many power cats do not have this problem.

Apex, you should try some others, if you had a bad experience on one. What kind gave you a bad experience?