The Future of Formula 40 Trimarans

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Skip JayR, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Different sailing generations...

    Reading it...
    Corley, I have seriously my doubts, that we can compare people of the 50th with nowadys. Why ? Let me explain it what I learnt from a farm owner.

    I remember clearly what he told me when I visited an eco-friendly farm to talk with the owner about "healthy living" with "healthy foods" where the farmer is working on the fields and in the forrest to avoid a negative impact onto the environment by using pesticides and heavy mashines...

    This eco-friendly farmer said looking at the staff he hires for working on the fields and in the forrest: The young generation of nowadays does not have the physical power anymore as people from countries who are not on the level of post-industrialized standards. So he hires people from East Europe who still can work hard, physically... while workers from Western country just dont have the physical power to do it.

    In other words: The modern life where for every simple work are used mashines, the "modern food" people eat daily over decades buying plastic wrapped in supermarkets having influence on the hormons and growth of the boy is not healthy. It weakens the physical strength.

    Simply to say: The modern human looses the physical power from generation to generation by the modern life style. So the experience of this farmer.

    I seriously have my doubts that we can compare sailors who were born in the 20th/30th of last century, and who made their sailing adventures that time in the 50th, 60th can be compared with the modern people of nowadays, who are wrapped in high tech clothes sitting on modern sailing yachts with winch systems, GPS/Chart plotters and a very easy handling of synthetic sails etc. ...

    Would be an interesting study for some students to analyse the "socialisation of sailors" over the time of a century. :)
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,744
    Likes: 175, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    I guess the point I was trying to make (perhaps badly?) was that the sea hasn't changed and you can still sail it in a relatively small boat. Ave Gitana that you linked in one of your posts has circumnavigated twice. You can still enjoy the same beautiful anchorages and keep more money for your cruising kitty rather than tying up too much in the boat.
     
  3. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Strontium Dog dismasted...

    Oh... for sales now ?! :) Yeah... I have noticed this very interesting boat since longer.... with the painting and "bully look of the centre hull" (from front) it brings a smile onto my face. Beside Kurt Hughes I like the design concepts of John Shuttleworth a lot.

    In 2011 it had experienced little bit drama with dismasting in the Fastnet...

    [​IMG]

    This boat has a fresh interieur... modern, sportive, simple... the prize is close to what it should be.... it can become a fair deal I think.

    Little bit Outborder for the Dinghi, Watermaker + Life raft... little bit more solar panel... that's it... no big investments required. So if the prize is reduced from owner's side down 10% plus these extra investments one gets a great boat for cruising racing... and next 2-3 years probably no big repairings to be expected.

    I like the moves of the boat... very softly, not a brutal hard breaker through the waves...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpbCczRdKZY
     
  4. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Safety on Trimarans...

    Ah... yes... I got it now. :) In Germany where I live we have a multi circumnavigation sailor, his name is Wilfried Erdmann. A living legend (born 1940). - He had "0" knowledge in sailing, bought in the 60th a used 25 foot wooden boat in Spain, and learnt the basics of astro navigation by Bernard Moitessier personally. :)
    [​IMG]

    The first solo circumnavigation took Wilfried 421 days time (not a typing error) coming back in March 1968 to Germany. So yes, all is possible in a small boat.

    Referring Trimarans I would not like to do such a trip (or any bigger offshore sailing) on a 30 or 35 Foot Tri...

    I decided for myself for 40 footer as it is the minimum size in rough seas not capsizing a speedy surf downhill higher waves. And I decided against a Catamaran because I dont get any warning on board of a Cat about the limits I am coming close (e.g. in unexpected gusts). A Cat sails very stiff... and in one moment to the next it lifts up one hull and can capsize. A trimaran is more agile and gives me much earlier some warnings about coming close to the limits of the boat. So for me it is a safety aspect too I prefer a Trimaran (Rec.: Yes, I know some of the cruising catamaran sailors will argument now: "No risk with a total weight of 9 tons" a cruising multihuller has. Impossible to uplift one hull.).

    Yes, I know the owner... it is owned by the solo sailor Austrian Reini Gelder. When I contacted him he yealed around little bit that the boat is much more worth than 160-170 Thousand Australian dollars he likes to sell it now...

    But the truth is: one can get a 43 footer at a max. prize of 105,000 AUD. So it is now... whatever such a boat has made as new records or being sister ship of legendary Tri Verbatim-Bullfrog... it is stlll "only" a boat, originally built beginning of the 90th (nearby 2 1/2 decades old).
    Personally it is not my style that I pay for the "cool image" a boat has. Generally I take my orientation from the market trends. And actually the prices are falling and for refitting the single eqippment becomes more expensive. So is the reality. Here I make very rational decisions. Have seen too many boat owners who just can afford to buy the boat and fail to bring up the running costs (another 100-150% of the sales prize over 10 years minimum).
     
  5. cavalier mk2
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 2,104
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: Pacific NW North America

    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    I think your farmer hired the wrong people Skip, the kids with a active, athletic lifestyle have staying power. Of course it is directed towards recreation, when it comes to work their brains kick in thinking there must be a easier way.

    One feature I always want on a tri is a wing bunk. The advantage of the offwatch being able to rest in the area of least motion without getting in the way shouldn't be underestimated on a skinny boat.

    In your size range I'd look at Newick racer/cruisers. Boats like his Creative design had a wing aka that gave room. Others like Moxie used a wing shelf for the bunks. While many are "old" designs for cruising there are advantages. Trimarans used to be designed to be easily driven, as the 80s progressed the focus shifted to speed through brute power and rounded v amas gave way to the big round flat bottomed spankers mentioned by Phil. Rigs grew exponentially along with expenses. This all coincided with the shift to sponsorship, sailors were no longer footing the bill for the arms race so the price no longer mattered.

    Smaller rigs and gear are easier to handle, short handed speed and safety is easier to maintain, perhaps a 50' is now in reach giving a easier motion through waves.

    Other designs from this era have similar features. I think I saw a Shuttleworth, Damiana ? that won it's ostar class on the market lately. As most boats live at the dock I wouldn't get too hung up on the age question, the survey should show milage and condition.
     
  6. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Shuttleworth designs... Trimaran Damiana

    I know the owner who ordered Damiana from John... its Michael Reppy who now sells the Trimaran Dolphin Spirit, a 43 foot Grainger Tri from Australia...

    Michael ordered Damiana in 1984... the boat that time already was built very modern in airex foam/carbon/Kevlar composite. I suppose nowadays nobody would use airex anymore because it has the risks to shrink or suck with water, right ? Instead using more modern foam materials like Divinycell (This thematic was deeply explained here in the forum. And the question Airex or Divinicell discussed here, too.)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Under deck Damiana shows a room layout and design we know very similarly from monohulls... beautiful indeed.
    [​IMG]

    Naturally I check such kind of boats, too... I like a lot the astern double berth room concept... so you can sleep directly beside the helm/autopilot (nowadays you can mirror the datas via wifi onto a tablet PC so you get informed easily about all datas the boat is producing).

    ... and the astern cabin is splitted from the living area setup in the centre of main hull with regularly navi + galley + saloon where there are two wing "pilot berth" or a double berth in the front bow section. - E.g. it is realized with the Farrier Command 10. Only a 30 foot foldable sized boat. But very smart.... and it has fully stand height in the saloon.
    [​IMG]

    I can make myself friend with boats which are still built in marine plywood epoxy, or little bit more modern cedar-epoxy... I am not one of these guys who have a huge fable for carbon in the hull section (little bit maybe for the bottom part for beaching and to stiff the cross beam section).

    I like the Condor 40 room concept, too... its charming and comfortable... a strong boat of 42 foot length with a 52-/53 foot mast regularly... which was built from midth 80th till 90th and in the market rarely at a good prize of 50-70 Thousand US dollars.

    Pictures show Condor 40 Trimaran Jaz
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Pictures show Condor 40 Trimaran Clytie
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Dick Newick Tris in the size of 40-50 Foot...


    Yes, Dick Newick... what a genius... I must say, the smaller Trimarans I dont like so much. The 40 and 50 footer Newick designed are great...

    e.g. the 48' trimaran. Here some pics of the so called "Traveller Class". It is Tri Alacrity (ex. Bird)...
    [​IMG]

    Breath taking beautiful lines.... it is very similar to the Kurt Hughes Design so I see it.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    ... and the 51' Newick trimaran.
    [​IMG]

    This boat was for sales in 2012... a powerful modern tri with rotation wing mast. It can be sailed easily single handed by a 74 year old sailor as shown here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmROnvKLoDQ


    More pictures of the interior here on the official website: http://www.trvlr.net.nz/traveller_4/welcome.html
    [​IMG]

    This boat is far out of the prize range I can go to.... I suppose it still can reach a sales prize of 220-230 Thousand Euros.

    Even smaller 42 Footers like the Newick Tri Pados (built 1995) is for sales at highly 160 Thousand US dollars. As said, this bulky look isnt of my personal taste.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. cavalier mk2
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 2,104
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: Pacific NW North America

    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Airex boats from the 70s are still holding up well. One of those things that still work even when the newest concoction lables older approaches obsolete.
     
  9. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    The Future of Formula 40 Trimarans is without Airex...


    To bring back the original topic... not messing around with too many sub-topics... I bet, that the Future of Formula 40 is wihtout Airex. :)

    Actually I have a seriously complementary question: What will be the prize of a newly built Formula 40 (pre estimated roughly) ?? - So far...

    • a Formula 40 One Design class association is founded (I see this as something urgent)
    • a clear rule book is written to define the "new Formula 40th" of the 21st century (under given cirumstances of new technologies/trimming tools: e.g. foil-assistance, rotating wing mast, T-Rudder, wave piercing bow)
    • a mould is built to copy many "one design boats", either owned by the F40 One Design Class Association itself or delivered by certified boat builders and designers, who follow strictly the one design class rule to keep the costs down.

    With modern production technologies, e.g. infusion method and new production capacities it should be possible to keep the costs within a frame of budget, which is affordable by "non professional sailors / private owners", e.g. Tony Grainger is producing his Airplay Raw 30 in Asia (Thailand) to benefit from low wages, same does Farrier Marine in Vietnam or the new 60 Foot Rapido (founded by Paul Koch + Jampes Sganzerla who designed the Corsair Trimarans from 1994 till 2010) is built in Vietnam too... which will come into the market late autumn this year.

    [​IMG]

    The 1st Hull of Rapido 60 is already built, click on the attached file.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. jamez
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 495
    Likes: 27, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 231
    Location: Auckland, New Zealand

    jamez Senior Member

  11. cavalier mk2
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 2,104
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: Pacific NW North America

    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Actually Limmershin is a completely different design than moxie. It featured Newick's new moon amas as well as a much different main hull and rig. It is a later design by a few years. Not a f 40 though to stay on topic.

    Cost of a f40 build now? If you have to ask you can't afford it as the man said.
     
  12. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Nonsense talking, Cavalier ... macho habit. Nothing else ni my understanding.

    All wealthy people I have met personally became millionairs (or even billionairs) because they know how to calculate a project successfully. - Or in other words: for me a boat is an investment (as its a place for living + working). And not a big barrell where I can dump endless money in.

    Maybe some of wealthy lawyers (who earn 600-1000 US dollars / hour), surgerists (making lots of money from modern fashion trends to pimp up women looking sexy), dentists or company owners who make lots of money with "sh**** products" can push uncounted their "(black) money" into their private man's toys...
    [​IMG]

    I am not one of these guys, and I dont want be one of these guys.

    There is one saying by one of the most richierst billionair brothers in the world who had been the founders of ALDI: "The best money you can earn is that you dont need to earn". In other words: its the money you dont throw out of the window as you can avoid it and safe it to keep in own pockets by efficient and smart cost controlling. Same I think for every part of my life and for boat building. And at this aspect targeted my question.

    Its not relevant, if a F40 costs 600 Thousand dollars or 1.3 milloin dollars. I dont care about this... money is just printed paper, a symbolically value. Nothing more.

    The relevant question is: Can it be built for 450 Thousand (instead of 600) or 1.1 milion dollars instead (of 1.3 million) not throwing money out of the window for nothing good.

    Even having that money for higher expenses, I'd better spend the saved money for donating it to NGOs to help poor and underpriveleged people/kids/childsren... its my respect towards life and living not realizing egoistically my own dream of (overprized9 boat like I see it from some super rich guys playing around on the water like "mad folks" missing any rational approach to a well balanced cost controlling.
     
  13. cavalier mk2
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 2,104
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: Pacific NW North America

    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    That quote was from JP Morgon, one of the original super rich guys. Low cost? Build yourself and get a used rig like Corley. Compete? Budget for breakages and consider them part of the fun.
     
  14. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,744
    Likes: 175, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    If you like Kurt's designs you could look at getting a 52' trimaran built to his CM design. Using his $6.5 per lb rule I'd estimate materials a 2 tonne 40' CM trimaran to be $31,200 USD and a 5 tonne 50' trimaran bare platform built in CM at about $69,777.50 USD. As you can see the square cube law and the volume and weight that comes with it significantly effects your cost of construction and is the main reason I dumped the idea of building a racing platform that was tailored to the Multi50 rules.

    That's not taking into consideration rig, sails and fitout. In addition if you have it built there is labor which is a very significant cost. Thain boatworks have built a few CM designs of recent times and could probably give a fairly accurate quote.

    40'

    http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/40tri_rapid.html

    52'

    http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/52tri.html

    The advantage of trying to scavenge your own bits is there are real savings to be made but it's not for the impatient. If you have access to sufficient amounts of money to buy a used trimaran outright that fits your needs that's the way to go there is great value out there on the used market. If you are looking for a performance cruiser timaran there are lots of good options.

    At first glance racing trimarans seem like good value used but the problem is most of the boats on the market have been flogged within an inch of their lives while racing are worn out and require extensive refits and new sails at which point they are no longer cheap.
     

  15. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    pre-calculation.... length vs. weight calculation ??

    Corley, many tks... you got me. Exactly what I was looking for. I have no idea, how to calculate a 3-hull project.... as I come from monohull sailing.

    For monohulls we roughly say: "for one meter boat length its round about 10-12,000 Euros for a used one, which is then 40% of a new built boat."

    So lets say, a 30 footer monohull (not an old one) in good conditions and modern design, still a competitive boat for offshore sailing you can buy for 100-120,000 Euros... then a new boat would cost roughly 250-300,000 Euros, inclusive rigg/sails wardrobe.

    Naturally all depends on the equipment the owner stores into the boat, quality of spares and tools, materials and the labour market (e.g. wages in Asia are much cheaper so there the Farrier is still built in hand-laying epoxy (which is huge work/time intensive and costly in Western Countries)).

    Such "numbers" only can be a rough orientation for a pre-budgeting, naturally. That's exactly what I am looking for now to get a feeling, e.g. what might cost a 40 Footer Trimaran being built newly.

    And yes... labour work for self builders is a very different topic.... you know the calculations of the Farrier F-39 in Netherlands ? The Trimaran FRAM is documented in details by the builder, who used "vakkum infusion method" for his hulls...

    Great video documenting it:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5RfCfMEQHI


    www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSj-wk29viU


    Indeed self building needs lots of patiency... you are right. I dont have this patiency I am aware of that. I am realistically and not dreaming around. - Thats why I look for a used boat... with some needs for reconfiguration, optimizing and refitting. And I dont believe that I have another 8-10,000 hours extra in my rest of life. The door slowly is closing :rolleyes:

    But I want get a feeling for the market prizes and therefore its relevant to know the building prizes (in total) for new trimarans.

    The amount of working hours and costs for FRAM are documented in details on the website. Excellent example and very helpfully for every self builder I would say: http://www.fram.nl/workshop/fram.htm

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    (Source of images: http://www.fram.nl/workshop/figures/timeandcosts.htm )
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.