the egotistical quest for an expensive thrill

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by deepkeeler, Dec 26, 2004.

  1. lakerunner
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    lakerunner Junior Member

    He he he ... This is a great thread . Almost religious in context. This one digs deep.
    As long as we push the back side of the envelope tragidy is sure to follow.
    I agree with you Richard.. 1 week ago Three Young college students had a bright idea of climbing into a canoe to rifle down a creek during a flash flood in Arizona. Search and rescue risked their lifes to pull 2 of the bodies out ,while one Im sure sees life much more brighter then before. ( Devils Advocate) If I had sold them the canoe ,should I have asked them what they are going to do with it? Was the Canoe Faulty?
    Will someone be Knocking on my door.........Who's the one going to get it for this.
    It is silly in ways that are almost un believable . BUT.........................Who's at fault?
    I bet there's one young fella that will think about it for a long long time.
  2. Why is it we worry about kids grades in any level of education. But we, THE PARENTS, are to damn busy playing with OUR TOYS, to teach them safer boating, climbing, oh crap, everything they are going to try under, PEER PRESSURE. Nothing wrong with the kids! It's the parents who are screwed up!!!
  3. UFO 34 Owner

    UFO 34 Owner Guest

    info required

    can more detaiuls of John Wilson's story be given - Is " Storm off Iceland " a book title or just an article.

    As an owner of a Holman & Pye UFO 34, I would really like to read his story.

    many thanks
  4. guest

    guest Guest

    It was part of a collection of storm survival accounts compiled by Peter Bruce for his "Heavy Weather Sailing" book, not sure if it is in the book, but this account was published by Yachting World Sept 1999.

  5. Richard_A
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    Richard_A New Member

    Austaralian MAxi

    just a note to advise that Nicorette lost her mast in very mild conditions just off the Gold Coat ( Queensland ) while on a sponsors & promo sail - just shattered apparently about 1 meter above deck
  6. Should have put the patch on before leaving.
  7. Hill

    Hill Guest


    Thats carbon fibre and the racing design mentality again. The continual rebuilds that some of these racing boats receive between each event are sorely needed.
    In the old days a mast could outlast the hull, now in the quest for lightness=speed all is compromised in the safety-reliability stakes.

  8. :) I am starting to mellow on this thread. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
  9. Richard_A
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    Richard_A New Member

    Melbourne - Osaka

    hi paul - what year / yacht did you do the melbourne - osaka on ?

    interested in your observations on the event

  10. mattotoole
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    mattotoole Senior Member

    I agree that production boats are probably getting better, but accident statistics probably have more to do with who's going to sea in numbers. Most production boats, like the ones you mention, never see real blue water.
  11. JimCooper
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    JimCooper Junior Member

    I am happy to have found this wee chat. I have my own bee in my bnonnet on this score too. Its annoying to find that racing boat technology has influenced the modern designers to the extent that few are even offering heavy displacment boats and have no knowledge of their virtues.
    A marine urban mythology pervades that light fast boats are the ones to have. Very few modern sailors can attest to the comfort of a deep narrow and heavy hull simply because they never tried it. I had no end of trouble finding a yacht with those desirable characteristics. Seakindly strong and forgiving is a good ocean voyager. Big fat and flat might work for a 70 foot beastie but youve got to hae conckers in your head if you think a 40 footer will tret you well with those characteristics.
  12. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    It was November, '82 - I was with my 40' Standfast (Frans Maas design) in West-Terschelling, one of the northern Dutch isles. We arrived in a blowing force 9, touching 10. This storm came out of the blue and nothing about it was forecasted. We had the boat turned with the bow into the wind, so that the waves that came crashing over the large dike that protects the harbor, hit us on the bow, rather than on the side.
    The next day, it was a full 10, and matter of factly I had to leave. At that time, there were only 2 approaches to Terschelling, one through the "Zuider Stortemelk" and one to the "Vliestroom" in the direction of the Afsluitdijk where you have to cross the shallow "Waddenzee".

    The fisherman along the quay, sensing my insecurity, tried to give me their best advise. "It's a southeasterly," they said, "the land is on your weather-side, so what are you waiting for?"
    They were speaking of their experience in their high-powered fishing vessels, they had no idea how to sail a yacht. The approach through the channel of the "Zuider Stortemelk" is a narrow piece of water with banks on starboard and the beach on larboard. Probably 200-300 mtrs wide.
    One mistake, and one mistake only, was enough to get beached.
    Nevertheless I listened to those "experts" and decided to take the boat out to sea.
    Having left the safe enclosures of the harbour, the jazz started to come up in de Vl√ćestroom, the wide Sealane between Vlieland and Terschelling.
    I ran off wind making up to 8/9 knots sometimes surfing over the waves with genoa 2 and two reefs in the main. Even then, the boat ran too fast.
    Approaching the Zuider Stortemelk I had to steer very close along the beach, not more than 50 mtrs away from the sand. Beachstrollers looked with horror,
    at the storming yacht that took wave after wave. Finally I was amid a breaking sea. Everything around was white, foam and breaking waves hit the boat continuously, and suddenly a huge breaker hit the boat and came as a massive wall of water over me.
    I had myself locked with two harnasses to the eyes bolted in the cockpit floor and I felt a strong suction when this wave finally lost its power.
    The stern came up, but the bow didn't. I realised that I was in the middle of the breaking waves, fallovers everywhere and that the wind was blowing against the tide.
    For a short time I thought that this was it and I was just waiting for something giving away, a hatch, the mast, whatever.
    It did not happen. Once out of the claws of the breaking water, I had the
    land on the weatherside.
    The history repeated itself at the approach of the piers of IJmuiden, but grace to the heavy engine and 3-bladed prop, I could motor against the full gale.
    I had the same experience 6 years later, sailing an Admirals Cupper from the same designer in the approaches to Den Helder, coming from Norway.
    I am almost sure that a few times the boat climbed vertically the oncoming waves, the fisherman that ran with me had flooded their searchlights to guide me to the harbour entrance that I could not see because of the breaking waves and foam that hit me in the face and blinding me.

    Just a story from the sea. For me no modern designs. I did the tour also with a Janneau Melody, that did nothing but broaching when I ran off-wind.
    1 person likes this.
  13. SailDesign
    Joined: Jan 2003
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    SailDesign Old Phart! Stay upwind..

    The great thiing about being a custom designer is that you get to draw what people want.....
    If they don't want heavy, I don't "offer" heavy.
  14. D'ARTOIS
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    I agree with you that you dispute never with your customers. Today it is Fun and Fast. People buying such boats never sail under the circumstances I described. People that do, have another kind of boats. It is as simple as that.
    And the rest? Look at the TP52 thread and you see the result.

  15. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Wonderful tale D'Artois add some sex a bit of espoinage and you'll have a best-seller !

    Light boats can be seaworthy and stand up to the sea but they give thier occupants an intolerable ride. Its the accelerations of a light boat in a heavy sea that make her so dangerous and so poor. Accelerometers in one of the modern lighweight cruising boats in heavy weather (light beamy) gave repeated and continual vertical accelerations 0f 0.4G at this only the hardiest of the few can function at all.
    In contrast the deep heavy narrower boats are generally under the 0.1G range. The heavier boat also has a heavier rig and this adds a massive inertia to both roll and pitching motion. Cruising in the modern lightweights is becoming a dash from location to location with voyage abandoning misery if any heavy weather is encountered.

    The irony is that the larger the boat the easier she is to sail as her mass increases, this is opposite to the marketing hype and ill informed comment from magazine reporters, and worse still from many modern inexperienced designers.

    I'll add a current tale here:
    The vessel "Scaldis" a Dutch 40 ton riveted steel 50 foot ketch is currently plugging along in boisterous weather just south of Hawaii, they sailed from SanFran. and paused in Hilo Hawaii for only a few days. She is manned by a 37 year old two 70 year olds and a 2 year old girl. All are well. All this despite encountering Hurricane spin off weather . The vessel is well found strong and comfortable, by "modern" values she is under rigged excessively heavy and excessively strong, and yet they are not complaining.
    Ordinary relatively inexperienced folk being looked after by the boat.
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