the egotistical quest for an expensive thrill

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by deepkeeler, Dec 26, 2004.

  1. mistral
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    mistral Senior Member

    mmm, ok DGreenwood, I'll try to focus on some concepts about your post:

    what do you mean with speed and agility???? speed may be intended in having a great top speed down wind, a decent average speed both upwind and downwind; how easy do you think that these speeds will be reached and kept??? with a very nervous boat, that one that will change his course by 90° degrees after three seconds you left the helm, or on a railway-like boat that will go straight even if you're sleeping on the helm??

    what do you mean with agility?? a boat that you can moore under sail in a crowded harbour? a one that you can race in a crowded buoy race?
    speed and agility means nothing if you don't explain us what do you mean with those magical words; i don't think you'll find many sailor who like slow and bulk boats!!!

    by my poor opinion the real killer on the sea is the mad conviction that you can buy your own seaworthiness, just buying a new hi-tech boat or other more or less expensive stuffs; people are forgetting the role of experience; in other fields same thing is happening (i can talk about mountaineriing and climbing, it's the same thing, hi-tech gear, difficult scenarios and poor experienced people lead often to dramas); i have a deep respect for Vendee's guy and Ellen Mac Arthur and their fantastic races; but they're aliens, absolute aliens landed from Mars, compared to the world of normal sailor; not claiming for more speed & technlogy, nor claming for Colin Archer's-style design we can use Vendee as a fair example, they (and their boats) are simply too far, we have to deal with every weekend's boat and normal sailors;

    Mistral
     
  2. Every thing can be justified. But is the selling of retired RACING HULLS and capabilities to a person with little or no racing experience a morale right of either party? IF you say yes to that. I say EVERY US CITIZEN should have assualt guns for adaquate protection against terrorists. I just justified assualt weapons. Love or a strong need, blinds us, to others around us.
     
  3. Why is it you give complete morale and legal support to racing boat companies to sell NEW and USED racing boats to non racing proven people? You know they are going to screw up! Used jet fighter aircraft to anybody. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ PERIOD!
     
  4. DGreenwood
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    DGreenwood Senior Member

    First let me say this not directed at anyone in particular:

    Sorry everyone I just get frustrated with all the wasted potential.
    Right here on this site we have studied designers and sailors who spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff. They are not wasting their time, they are makeing great gains in the quaility, safety and fun of sailing.
    I know some of these folks and they have taught me much and I hope they will teach me more. But it is not much fun if this becomes a place to rationalize an unconsidered opinion. We gain nothing.

    Using examples of boats that do not perform as one would expect because it is outside the environment it was designed for, gains nothing.

    Sitting in an armchair and making disparaging remarks about guys that are out there making it happen is not becoming an intelligent sailor.

    Now in response to Mistral questions:

    "by my poor opinion the real killer on the sea is the mad conviction that you can buy your own seaworthiness, just buying a new hi-tech boat or other more or less expensive stuffs; people are forgetting the role of experience; in other fields same thing is happening (i can talk about mountaineriing and climbing, it's the same thing, hi-tech gear, difficult scenarios and poor experienced people lead often to dramas);"

    I think we said the same thing here.

    "what do you mean with agility?? a boat that you can moore under sail in a crowded harbour? a one that you can race in a crowded buoy race?"

    I guess I assumed we were talking solely about open water sea keeping ability of ocean racers and round the cans racers and whether their efforts have been of value or a detriment to the general populace of sailors.
    It is pretty clear to everyone (I hope) that they have contributed a great deal to the handling and strength of all types of sailing vessels.


    What I meant by agile, in terms of open water any latitude sailing, and including the ability to track, have seen much research amongst the Open 60 guys in particular. Hell, what could be more important to a single hander? Foil shapes, lead, (as in placement of center of effort) and how the heeled wetted surface changes and therefore changes balance are all topics that are considered carefully..
    Yeah...the "sweet spot" on a modern race boat is smaller. It is also sweeter. It requres skill, to know where it is, and to keep it there.
    And speed...well I can tell you speed means safety at sea. And not because it gets you to your destination faster. I like being out there more than the average sailor.
    It is because it gives you choices. Now that we have all this improved forecasting we can pick which side of a low we want to ride. We can actually consider going downwind to Brazil because it is no big deal to go over to the otherside of the Atlantic and then south. Going out to Bermuda or Hawaii is family vacation fun, not, an epic saga.
     
  5. lakerunner
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: ohio

    lakerunner Junior Member

    Safety is always going to be an issue only to those with the common sense to inforce it. If safety is going to be legislated to boaters it should be the same as auto insurances. We all know if you own a 32' cigarette your not going to cruise at 14 Knots
    sitting on the deck enjoying a chat with your friends and family while on auto pilot
    If Dad buys a 32' picnic we also Know he is not going airborne at 80 mph. Same with any extreme sport. Who really pays for search and rescue teams ? Insurance Co.? Ha Ha Ha. WE DO . Every one has good points . Deepkeeler has made a very legitimate case. I bet he loves his job . But I bet he hate what he see's at times. We all need to take responsibility for our safety and our actions . If we Don't (and alot won't) We will continue to pay the price because Government will .and you know how much we all like that. The bad dictates to the good.
     
  6. DGreenwood
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    Location: New York

    DGreenwood Senior Member

    Although rescue of racers and it's costs are an unfortuanate expense we must be very carefull not to deny our adventurers their place to play. In the US we pay for the coasties to go out and correct thousands of preventable screw ups every year.
    As much as I don't like it I am coming to the conclusion that enforced education (Licensing) is the only answer. Or at least it's the only one I can think of.
    Licensing could be required of racers as well. Just like the qualifying sails required of long singlehanded races.
     
  7. Finally the seperation of racing from non racing. Thank you all. Who is first to change the status? My mommie is calling me in for supper. Richard :)
     
  8. A parting thought. Could all of us who are a club member of any boating club, print out a copy of all these pages to be brought up as INFORMATION and THOUGHT at the next club meeting? WE got excited, the rest need to be made aware. Otherwise this is just a bull session. My best to all of us, Richard Petersen
     
  9. Paul Merry

    Paul Merry Guest

    Dear CT 249

    I think you are the most vicious poster by far, how about sticking to facts and avoiding playground bullying.

    You imply that I am an experienced sailor! I have crossed and sailed through Bass straight on many occasions, I have over 30 years at sea and hold both an Engineers and Masters ticket and had 11 years with the Navy. I have fished the North Sea and worked 6 months on a north sea oil rig. I am also a keen yachtsman I have sailed south of all the capes now in my own 45 foot yacht. I have also raced the Melbourne-Osaka as crew.

    I would respectfully suggest that you may have little deep sea experience (correct me if I'm wrong).

    You said
    " the fact is that many of these sailors have seen the ocean much more than anyone here, probably - yet they choose to sail the lighter boats they prefer."

    But isn't this like several of your points just circular reasoning? Considering we are talking about racing, they have little option if they are to reamain competitive. Becauase they choose light boats has little to do with light boats being more seaworthy than heavy boats which incidentally is wrong, a well designed heavy boat will always be safer in the ocean taking all factors into account.

    Some heavy boats are not seaworthy for sure but that is a distraction, and the old full keeled racing boats wern't designed to a seaworthiness critereon either, only to a rating rule.

    The Sydney-Hobart is a coastal race in the Lee of the Southern ocean predominant swell. Boats can run for shelter for much of the trip. If the race had been down the West coast of Tasmania it would be tough and I doubt any of the fleet would have completed the race. Problem is that some would have tried and either died or been rescued.

    Much of the 'bad weather' of the Hobart is only tough on the boats because they are being pushed so hard, if Skandia had slowed down she would have reamined structurally integral I'm sure, so its the masters fault, he broke the boat because of his desire to win. The rougue wave was just the wave that they fell off while driving hard. On the other hand I doubt he could have Hove-to either given the nature of the vessel. But he could have slowed down. I think this is the principal that leads people like Deepkeeler to post here, frustration with unseaworthy conduct from racers who know they get free life insurance from rescue authorities. I find his language appropriate for a frustrated and often incredulous SAR.

    I often think it criminal that their services are pushed so hard by the MANIC yachtsman on his way to a finish line.

    The well crewed British steel boats have an excellent record working around the world the hard way they earn't some respect. Seems many racing organisers could learn from that as far as vessel design and safety and concerned.

    Paul
     
  10. mistral
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    mistral Senior Member

    i perfectly agree with you, Skandia crew suicide themselves pushing the boat over her limit; Nicorette's crew has sailed a more conservative race, slowing down their boat to preserve her from strucutural failure (altough they suffered some delaminations too), trying to avoid an offshore run; i doubt that if you squeeze your boat to her limit you can accuse boat design, or canting keel, or IMS rule or anyone else for having destroyed your boat and risked your life; so, can we talk about unseaworthy boat or we'd better talk about unseaworthy attitude towards races joined by speedy dragster-boats?????

    Mistral
     
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  11. mistral
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    mistral Senior Member

    hey DGreenwod don't joke!!!!! IMOCA are all but stable boats, they're speedy skimmng dishes, have you ever seen some movie about them going upwind in moderatley heavy seas??? they slam down in each single wave like a table thrown from the second floor, try to think about reaching the bow to fix some problems in such conditions!!!! you'd be thrown away from the boat in a couple of seconds, your life depending on lifelines' quality; i've no doubt about it!!! Have you really seen them hand-steered downwind??? they behave like my laser 2 under a gust, absolutely nervous , they react in a winkeye to each rudder movement, do you really think this can be called stability??? Believe me, they're wild mustangs not quiet cows!!

    Mistral
     
  12. deepkeeler
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    deepkeeler Junior Member

    Thanks to everyone for their posts, understand that my apparent vehemence is due to frustration, I am not trying to insult just to carry over my emotions in written language from this forum platform.

    I think Build em safe is the theme you are lambasting with so much venom.

    No I am not telling you that about tank testing. I am trying to tell you (if you read beyond your blinkered appraoch) that wave tank testing proves the safety aspects of a seaworthy hull as opposed to an unseaworthy one. It cannot predict its toal response nor its performance but it does show the characteristics wrt safety, dont get tow testing confused with wave tank testing.

    Arrogance is frightening when it comes to life and limb and some apparently very big chips on shoulders.


    That is good, and yet we still can't draw the line even where the farce is clear to all, it seems to me it is a good indicator of the state of mind the racing "Industry" today.


    Do you have broadband, each report is about 5 MB since they contain charts and pictures. Give me your braodband email.

    Historical boats, no-one said they were seaworthy. You are also confusing two issues here, hullform and materials.

    We have had a lot of losses of traditionally built wooden vessels in severe weather, and due to collision. A lot of planked vessels are abandoned in heavy weather because the pumps fail and the steady inflow that these vessels experience ends up swamping the vessel. This has nothing to do with safe hull forms .



    deepkeeler@yahoo.com.au
     
  13. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Re "Dear CT 249. I think you are the most vicious poster by far, how about sticking to facts and avoiding playground bullying."

    Hang on, the thread started off by calling people "Manic" and worse, I got called "childish" and I'm the one who is being a bully? Surely that title does not refer to people who are defending others from attack, as I was.

    This thread started with calling a large number of people egotistical maniacs and idiots. What terms have I used that are as bad as that, or the direct and personal abuse of me by you and Deepkeeler? Please point them out.

    Re "You imply that I am (not) an experienced sailor!"

    OK, I was wrong and I apologise. Your own description of your Strait crossings was "several times", it seems to me that "several times" is logically read as being less than 50 or so, or "many". Therefore I had the wrong impression. I believe that it reasonable for me to think that "several" (in your first post) does not mean "many" (in your second post").

    Re "I would respectfully suggest that you may have little deep sea experience (correct me if I'm wrong)."

    Two Sydney-Noumeas (and return), 5 Sydney-Hobarts (and return) + many coastal races etc etc. I now prefer dinghy sailing & cruising. I am not totally happy with current offshore trends, myself.

    Re "But isn't this like several of your points just circular reasoning? Considering we are talking about racing, they have little option if they are to reamain competitive. Becauase they choose light boats has little to do with light boats being more seaworthy than heavy boats which incidentally is wrong, a well designed heavy boat will always be safer in the ocean taking all factors into account."

    Well it seems like we're ALL reasoning in a circular fashion.....Your praise for heavy boats is merely re-stating your earlier opinion.

    Racing sailors in the Hobart do NOT, repeat NOT, have to sail light boats to remain competitive under IRC and IMS. Last Hobart I did, Division C went to a 1965 heavy-displacement S&S. That boat was so succesful under IMS inthe UK, that it was re-measured by ISAF to try to find out why.

    This year, a 1973 design S&S heavyweight is winning a division, as is a heavy Swan 48. In the 4? years since IRC was introduced to national titles in Australia, the title has once gone to a 1909 Fife, and once to a Swan 48. Both are heavy masthead riggers.

    In last year's race, 2nd overall and in class went to the heavy masthead-rig Joubert (prof of naval architecture) Tilting at Windmills.The previous year, 2nd overall and a class win went to the smaller but similar Joubert, Zeus II.

    So that's the facts....in the last 3 Hobarts, heavy boats have 2 second places and have probably taken out almost half of the Division wins, despite forming a fairly small proportion of the fleet.

    There is simply NO bias against heavy boats under IRC and IMS in the Hobart. In fact, Australian designer Robert Hick says that the old boats like Zues (1972 dsign) hae a BETTER chance of an overall win than a modern 30 footer.

    Re "The Sydney-Hobart is a coastal race in the Lee of the Southern ocean predominant swell. Boats can run for shelter for much of the trip. If the race had been down the West coast of Tasmania it would be tough and I doubt any of the fleet would have completed the race. Problem is that some would have tried and either died or been rescued."

    That's not the informtion I get from those who have done the Westcoaster and the Hobart. They say the Hobart is much harder because of the southerly set kicking up the seas. The Westcoaster swells are bigger but longer and not as steep. Remember, the Westcoaster is on at the same time as the Hobart, in exactly the spot you are talking about. No-one has died or been rescued despite the fact that the fleet includes boats like an Open 60 and typical cruiser/racers.

    So here we have a fleet EXACTLY where you are sayingthe Hobart fleet would have been decimated, EXACTLY at the same time...yet no-one has died, no-one has been rescued (last I looked).

    Re "Much of the 'bad weather' of the Hobart is only tough on the boats because they are being pushed so hard, if Skandia had slowed down she would have reamined structurally integral I'm sure, so its the masters fault, he broke the boat because of his desire to win.:"

    I totally agree with you. I agree it was bad seamanship. I don't like the Skandia type myself. But you adn Deepkeeler seem to be denouncing all fin keelers of light/medium displacement.

    One analogy can be seen in rally cars. My car is mor reliable than the world rally champions; not because I'm better or my car is, but just because I don't go as hard. You and I don't get running injuries like a marathon runner, either - because we don't go as hard. Boats being pushed to the limit cannot be judged against boats that are not.

    I totally agree that it is bad seamanship to push too hard. I lost my father sailing; I have searched for the bodies of people I know. Stuff happens, and we should be careful out there.

    It doesn't mean that you guys should call almost all ocean racers "manics", "madmen" and egotistical and then insult those who dare to reply.....




    \
     
  14. Finished eating. Can play some more. It seems like there are 2 different threads running here. -------1 is the hard core racers bashing each other. --------------2 is the bunch that wants to keep hard core out of the public hands. THREAD MODERATOR---- split this into 2 seperate threads!!! Or I bring the great MIGEHTTO here from another thread!!!!
     

  15. lakerunner
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: ohio

    lakerunner Junior Member

    DG .You are right . Thanks for the comeback on this. Licensing is a viable option, and yes everyone should have their playgrounds in any recreation or
    livelyhood. Education is a very inportant issue here. We are able to jump in a boat with no responsible way of detecting we can even operate one.
    Try that at your municipal airport ! This thread opened a can of worms.
    and I would like to think we can keep it civil. Obviously it has touched a nerve and has won a seat deserving attention. I just hope we can address it diplomatically with good thought and Ideals . Simply put, we face some serious problems that are very real That deserve adequate solutions.
    I use adequate because there are No perfect solution to satisfy all
     
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