the deck on my Pearson Ensign

[seasailor55]

On the C-24, you could have slightly more area, though a slight reduction in the main/fore triangle area will permit a bigger mizzen, which is the key to it's usefulness. The Electra was designed under the CCA influences, so a yawl was a viable option if attempting to get a "favorable rate". On the Electra, I'd use the stock sloop rig, moved forward with a new mizzen as it was under powered. A 35-40 sq. ft. mizzen would easily offer substantial power off wind. The Ensign carries more area then the Electra, so resizing the main would probably be necessary. On the C-24, I'd move the main forward a foot or two, reduce the main to the 135 sq. ft. range and then add 70 sq. ft. to a mizzen.

Sounds reasonable. I love yawls, and find them very elegant. Would you use a bowsprit to move the C24 sloop sail plan forward and reduce the main as metioned? Moving the sloop mast forward would require less surgery than retrofitting a schooner rig, since the deck and cabin profile could remain essentially the same. I'll try a sketch to see what it might look like. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[seasailor55]

OK,

I moved the mainmast forward approximately 24", reducing the foretriangle and shortening the luff of the headsail resulting in a fractional rig, with a slightly overlapping jib of approximately 99 sq.ft. I reduced the size of the main to 145 sq. ft. by shortening the boom, and added a 70 sq. ft. mizzen at the aft cockpit bulkhead. Total sail area is approximately 314 compared to the 284 in the Columbia 24 Contender masthead sloop rig. The main and jib appear to be a little too far forward to me, by eye, but then again it's a yawl not a ketch and the mizzen should be well aft of the mainsail, right? I still don't know the formula for determining the CE of a sail plan, so please look it over and let me know what you think. Thanks.

 

[PAR]

That's way too much area on a boat with a 19.6 SA/D. It needs to be about 290- 300 sq. ft. Also the proportions are more ketch then yawl, plus the main is located too far forward as you suggested.

 

[seasailor55]

Hmmmm.

When I added the sail areas up, I was surprised that it was almost 10% more than the masthead sloop rig, but I thought that split rigs called for more sail area (although in smaller individual sails) to compensate for the extra weight and windage, and that the masthead sloop rig was underpowered. Pardon the question, but why are the proportions "more ketch than yawl"? Is the jib too big? Are the main or mizzen too tall?
Please elaborate. Thanks.

 

[seasailor55]

If your group is a fully documented not-for profit (that is to say: the IRS recognizes that donations to it are tax deductible) I will consider donating the deck, sails and rudder to your group.

Our group is definitely interested in the Ensign parts, and can provide you with a receipt for your generous donation. I am planning a trip to Pennsylvania and Washington D.C. in April and could pick up the parts then, if that suits you.

 

[PAR]

You can add some area on the C-24, but not a lot. The SA/D on her as a sloop is 19.6, which means you'll have good light air ability. Putting on much more area then this will mean she'll need reefing early. The Electra was under powered, which was fixed to a degree with the large Ensign sail plan. Yes the mizzen is too tall and has too much area in it proportionally for a typical yawl.

Typical yawl proportions on this 40' Phil Rhodes design.

The classic ketch proportions on the Herreshoff H-28

 

[captain tom]

Very good. Send me off-line contact information through the site administrator and we can discuss the details.

 

[seasailor55]

You can add some area on the C-24, but not a lot. The SA/D on her as a sloop is 19.6, which means you'll have good light air ability. Putting on much more area then this will mean she'll need reefing early. The Electra was under powered, which was fixed to a degree with the large Ensign sail plan. Yes the mizzen is too tall and has too much area in it proportionally for a typical yawl.

Great examples of ketch and yawl proportions. I've always loved Rhodes designs, and that yawl is absolutely gorgeous. I'm also a big fan of H-28s, having read an article on them in RUDDER magazine thirty years ago. (Still have the magazine!) I arrived at a local marina some years ago to purchase a sound, beautiful, hand-built H-28, but was a couple of hours too late, and another guy beat me to it. I've regretted it ever since.

Judging by these two examples, the yawl mizzen carries about 2/3 the sail area of a ketch mizzen. I can tell I'm going to have to quit posting my poor sketches, as they're starting to embarrass me. I should obviously leave the sail plans and conversions to the experts, and quit trying to make sloops into schooners and yawls. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[seasailor55]

That's way too much area on a boat with a 19.6 SA/D. It needs to be about 290- 300 sq. ft. Also the proportions are more ketch then yawl, plus the main is located too far forward as you suggested.

PAR

I found a picture of one of your designs on the forum, a 21' ketch. Beautiful boat and nice rig. With that big cockpit and split rig, it looks like it would be nice for a sail training program. Love that fantail stern! Is it suitable for sheet material (plywood) construction?

 

[PAR]

Is it suitable for sheet material

Yep, plywood, steel or the original in aluminum.

The biggest issue I see with most small craft, is the design attempts to address way too many things than it can handle. This boat was designed for a specific region and it's sailing conditions. Yea, it's big enough to put a cabin on it, but why? It's a better arrangement in this scale, to use a boom tent and save the weight and building trouble of a cabin. Sure you can consider an inboard, but come on, do you really want a lump of iron in the bilge? Boats are personal enjoyment devices and as soon as a designer forgets this, is the point he stops being effective.

 

[seasailor55]

Wouldn't consider a cabin for this boat. The boat looks perfect just the way it is; a big, roomy daysailer. The outboard well would take care of auxilary propulsion, the shallow draft with centerboard would suit the protected waters where we do most of our sailing, and the short spars, modest beam and flat bottom would make it trailerable and beachable. The fantail stern with wheel and the gaff rig look very traditional, reminiscent of the old English fishing ketches. Very nice design. What is its best point of sail, what does it use for ballast, and are study plans available?

 

[PAR]

That's Kestrel and drawn up 5 - 6 years ago in aluminum, for a fellow in the north west. The best point of sail would be a beam reach or a broad reach with a mule flying in light air. Though she has a yawl rig, the mizzen is used in light air only and is struck as wind strengths pick up. The sailing location for this design is full of light and fluky winds, so several options are offered with the yawl.

She was written up in DuckWorks magazine shortly after designed > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/designs/kestrel/index.htm <
I didn't approve the text which has some errors in it. Read the comments at the end of the article for more information.

I've never done up a study plan for the boat, though one certainly could be. She also could convert to plywood easily enough and would be lighter for it. She was designed for her area, which has lots of floating debris and just barely submerged logs to tear open little boat hulls. This is why she's fairly stout for her size. The transom is a favorite of mine and easy to make, just being a conical section attached to each side. Ballast is epoxy coated, wooden cased, lead bricks along side the centerboard trunk. The outboard well was designed to accept the 50 year old outboard he wanted to use. The client also insisted on wheel steering in a boat that could easily be paddled, rowed or sailed. What do I know.

Here's a thread about the design > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/ricellis-aluminum-gift-10388.html < Naturally, they mis-spelled my name . . .

Contact me through email for further information.

 

[seasailor55]

Kestrel

Thanks for the info. I visited the thread, really liked what I saw and sent you an e-mail. By the way I have abandoned plans for the Columbia 24 Contender. As it turns out, the boat is missing its rudder, has a crack in the starboard side from the sheer to the waterline, and has no sails or running rigging. Things could get pretty involved and expensive, and I'd have to travel 450 miles one way to pick it up. As one of the enlightened forum members put it: "cheap boats don't always end up being cheap". Thanks anyway for all the comments and examples of different rigs, how they work, and why they do or don't on certain hulls. I feel I've learned a few things. In the meantime, the derelict Ensign project is still proceeding.

 

[seasailor55]

Very good. Send me off-line contact information through the site administrator and we can discuss the details.

Well,

Captain Tom has decided to donate a 1964 Pearson Ensign deck in good condition, complete with all hardware, teak cockpit floor, mahogany seats, a rudder, and some sails. I just have to pick them up and install them! But first, there are new mast step supports, cabin sole, v-berth, and bulkheads to fabricate and install. Thanks to everyone for all the advice, support, and input. Hopefully, I'll be able to post some pics of the finished product in the foreseeable future.



Having had no success in obtaining another Ensign or Electra, I might have to teach them to sail and match race a pair of Light Schooners that I have in mind to build with help from some of the parents, woodworkers, and volunteers. But that's another project!

 

[seasailor55]

Well,

Picked up a very good 1965 Pearson Ensign deck with the original hardware, including bronze winches at Ensign Spars last week. I also got the mahogany cockpit seats, coamings, and tiller, along with a rub rail, two bags of sails, a mast step, and many other parts. Many thanks to Captain Tom and Zeke Durika for generous donations and advice. The deck is now sitting on saw horses next to my Ensign, waiting to be installed, so that bulkhead fitting can begin. I have been offered a Cape Dory 22 with trailer in good condition and plan to pick it up next week. Since both boats are similar Alberg designs as far as size, weight, draft, and keel configuration, they should be a good pair to use for some match racing, although the Ensign will probably be faster if well handled.