Sydney-Hobart 2013

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Thanks, OC-great info!

 

Well there was that one AC where one crew member got to ride a recumbent bike just below the weather rail. the bike also had hand cranks. So you were pedaling with hands and feet to drive the beast. and there was one on each side of the boat. they were connected directly into the winches and hydraulics so in a tack, the "other guy" would transition to leeward first. You'd have both sides grinding through the tack and then coming out of the tack the guy newly to leeward would climb out and up to the weather rail leaving the poor schlub on the windward side to provide the power for that tack...

 

It's interesting to see that none of the new boats have canting keels or other forms of shifting ballast. It really knocks on the head the idea that shifting ballast is the way of the future as some had claimed in earlier years.

 

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There you go again-a definitive statement that is simply FALSE! In addition to every IMOCA 60 and every Volvo 70 and almost every Mini Transat Proto-the premier ocean racing classes, there is the new Beau Geste(and probably many others-I haven't been paying a lot of attention) designed specifically for the Sydney-Hobart with a canting keel:

On June 6th 2012, the day after the Beau Geste 2009 suffered serious structural damage to the hull and deck during the Auckland to Noumea Race, we received a call from Gavin Brady. We had been working together successfully on the Vesper IRC52 programme and he asked us if we were interested in designing a new 80’ racer for Mr. Karl Kwok. It was a great honour for us to get this opportunity, as Mr. Kwok’s team and boats have been extremely successful during the last twenty years.

The goal for the new Beau Geste is to win the 2013 Sydney to Hobart Race, in both elapsed and corrected time. This is a huge ask for an 80’racer, sailing against very fast and proven 100’ maxis. As length is king for an upwind race, we concentrated our efforts on designing the most efficient 80’ for a downwind VMG/broad reaching race, in the hope that if the conditions are right, we may give our bigger competitors a surprise.

To come up with the initial concept Karl and Gavin gave us their order of priorities:
1 – The new boat needs to be very reliable. We have worked on the engineering with Pure, as usual, and as the boat is bigger than 24m we worked to the GL scantlings which are quite demanding. The boat’s structures are now CAT 0 compliant and very strong.
2 – The 2009 mast was immaculate and had to be re-used, so we had to work around a given RM.
3 – The boat has to be the quickest for its length…so forget about the rating!

So given that exciting design brief, we quickly decided to go for the lightest possible canting keel 80’ to reach the maximum possible stability that the 2009 rig could take. The draft was set to 5.5 m, the deepest possible to enter the marina in Auckland, and the bulb weight adjusted accordingly.

 

OK, I missed ONE new boat with a canting keel in the Hobart. That doesn't affect the point, which is that some earlier claims about the number of ocean racing yachts that would be built with shifting ballast were overstated.

The Volvo 70s are no longer new or being built. The Minis and IMOCAs are not in the Hobart and whether they are "the premier ocean racing classes" is open to debate. The IMOCAs and Minis are raced by very few sailors from the USA, Australasia, the Med etc whereas many, many thousands of sailors sail conventional fixed keel types offshore in those areas. Even in France, fixed keelers are vastly in the majority of boats being built and sailed. Some of us think that classes that are raced very little, if at all, in most of the world are not the world's premier classes.

 

What was the quote Doug used Hmmmm!

Do the new Volvo 65's Have canting Keels. Guess Hmmmmmmm!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_One-Design#One-Design_features

Your Quote ::

"whereas many, many thousands of sailors sail conventional fixed keel types offshore in those areas."

Are They all sailing on new Designs. Hmmmmmm!

Is it possible if you missed 1 and purposely did not mention the Volvo 65's, to support your arguement , you could have missed some Others in The Sydney Hobart Race?

Good to see this tread is on track again regarding the SHR.

OC

 

Oh for god's sake, this is a thread about the Hobart. There are no Volvo 65s in the Hobart and therefore they are irrelevent to the configuration of new boats in the Hobart!

I did not purposely ignore the 65s, I ignored them because they are not doing the Hobart. If one DOES bring Volvo 65s (and IMOCAs and Minis, which are not doing the Hobart) then one must bring in the rest of the new fixed keelers in the world.

The point is that when canters came into prominence, and water ballasted boats before that, some people said that they would become much more popular than they have actually been. The vast majority of offshore racing boats built since shifting ballast became mainstream in the '90s are fixed keelers like Farr 40s, TP52s, Beneteaus, Archies, Bavaria Matches, the "normal" Ker/Mills/Rogers IRC types, etc etc etc.

PS How many Volvo 65s are there? It's interesting to see how the race entry has declined since shifting ballast was introduced. Check the numbers to see how far numbers have collapsed.

 

Sydney-Hobart / sins by omission,version 2

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But as OC points out the new boats for the Premier Round the World Race
all have canting keels. Yes, thats right-every single one. And every single IMOCA 60, and every single MiniTransat Proto. Lots of new canting keel boats-even a couple of production canting keelers according to Seahorse.
PS- aren't there a couple or more Volvo 70's in the Sydney-Hobart this time around?

 

Sydney-Hobart

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I don't know about that: how much more popular can you get after DOMINATING two of the most important ocean racing round the world classes??!!

 

You are comparing apples with Oranges.
Beneteaus, Bavaria

Cruising Boats. That's bit unfair is not.

The Volvos 65's A far design also.

Sponsored race boats can afford the canting Keels, Non sponsored boats usually can't except millionaire owners like Wild oats X1 ect and excepting a few racer cruisers like the cookson 50ft plus you comparing annual races against Bi annual or even longer period between races.

COOKSON RACER CRUISER

50 foot Racer/Cruiser with Canting Keel and Trim Tab Specification

1 STRUCTURE

1.1 Hull Construction
Hull is constructed in female mould.
Construction is Carbon Fibre with Closed Cell Foam Core.
Laminates are infused with epoxy resin, consolidated under vacuum and heat cured.

1.2 Internal Structure
Bulkheads, structural frames and longitudinal, are constructed from
Carbon/E-glass laminates with closed cell foam core.
Reinforced in high load areas with carbon laminates.

Conceptuals for the Cookson 50 developed from reducing Transpac 52 hull shape to 50 feet, maximizing beam, and increasing freeboard for full headroom to produce an interior suitable for family cruising.

Fully equipped with a canting keel and trim tab/canard to maintain stability and minimize crew numbers makes the Cookson 50 a winner all round for the serious club racer with a view to successfully competing in any grand prix event he chooses.

To date, the Cookson 50 has shown remarkable performances reaching and running. She has proven capable of holding her own on the wind against some serious competition. She is a true multipurpose yacht, big and powerful unencumbered by any rule but fits within the rules of most major grand prix events.

Pos N.Velico Yacht Armatore Modello Cl. 1 2 3 4 5 Punti
1 ITA14909 CALIPSO IV PANICCIA PIERO COOKSON 50 CANT R 1 5.00 3.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 6.00

ADRIATIC CUP


COOKSON 50

50-footer with a canting keel. "This all started out as a fixed keel yacht with a trim tab," says Mick, "We basically took the Transpac 52 concept of a lighting fast 52 foot racer, shrunk it to 50ft, and increased the freeboard so it had some internal volume and felt like a 50-footer rather than a One-Tonner. We wanted something that would be reasonable to live aboard offshore and that you could also use to entertain your friends at the dock."

Having recently completed the Farr Open 60, Virbac, winner of it's first regatta, the double handed Transat Jacque Vabres, which was technically very complex and therefore expensive to build, much of his thinking has gone into getting the benefits of a canting keel, but containing the cost.

Having started with the fixed keel, trim tab idea, Cookson's thoughts ranged across to the radical end of the spectrum to an all-out machine with canting keel, free-standing rotating wing mast and so on. Then, the pendulum swung back towards the middle and Cookson settled on a more conservative go-fast boat, built in carbon and foam core, with a swept-spreader rig - a "nice yacht".

One of Cookson's major goals with the project is to provide a yacht that can be raced or cruised fast and safely by small crews, double-handed or even single-handed when the desire arises. With the rise in popularity of this kind of racing the fixed keel option looked less attractive. Crew costs are one of the major limiting factors according to many owners today. This boat will have the ability to sail with significantly less crew than other boats its size.

2013 race results.


ORCi European Championships
•1st ORC1, TRUCKNOR WOLFPACK, TP52 (590), Wolfpack AS
•2nd ORC1, CAMILLA, Cookson 50 (541), Camilla
•3rd ORC 1, FLASH PRO SAILING, TP52 (495), Flash Pro Sailing
•1st ORC 2, TEKNOVA /ALBATROSS, First 40 (608), Teknova Albatross Sail Racing
•3rd ORC 3, TEAM ARKEN ZOO, First 36.7 (446), Team Arken Zoo

Sweden



08/2013

Cowes Week
•1st First 40.7, INCOGNITO, First 40.7 (354), Paul McNamara & Tony Lowe
•1st Sunsail F40, FIRST SAILING, Sunsail F40 (608), First Sailing

UK
08/2013

Channel Race
•1st IRC 0, PLEOMAX, VO60 (396), Harm Prins
•2nd IRC 0, VENOMOUS, CM60 (414), Derek Saunders
•3rd IRC 0, TEAM HEINER ONE, VO60 (472), Roy Heiner
•2nd IRC 1, LISA, First 44.7 (496), Nicholas Jones
•1st IRC 2, LA REPONSE, First 40 (608), Andrew McIrvine

AF Offshore Race
•1st ORC A, CAMILLA, Cookson 50 (541), Team Johan Frost
•1st ORC B, KARUKERA, First 40 (608), Ola Sandell
•2nd ORC B, TEKNOVA/ALBATROSS RACING,First 40 (608), Bengt Falkenburg

Annapolis Newport Race

•3rd IRC 1, PRIVATEER, Cookson 50 (541), Ron O'Hanley


North Sea Race

•3rd IRC Overall & 1st IRC 0, PLEOMAX, VO70 (396), Harm Prins
•2nd IRC 2, ELKE, First 40 (608), Frans Rodenburg
•2nd ORC 2, BLONDIE, First 42s7 (294), Henny Abbenhues
•3rd ORC 3 & 4, GEMS, Oceanis 440 (202), Anna Hoebee

UK 05/2013

Caribbean 600 2013

•1st IRC & CSA, PRIVATEER, Cookson 50 (541), Ron O'Hanley
•Line Honors, ICAP LEOPARD, Farr 100 (591), Mike Slade

Antigua

Vendee Globe Canting Keels

Sydney Hobart 2012

•2nd ORCi 1 & 3rd IRC 0, JAZZ, Cookson 50 (541), Chris Bull


RORC Season's UK Championship 2012

•1st IRC CK, LEE OVERLAY PARTNERS, Cookson 50 (541), Adrian Lee
•3rd IRC CK, GRAN JOTITI, VO70 (635), Ernesto Cortina
•1st IRC 0, PLEOMAX, V060 (396), Harm Prins
•2nd IRC 2, LA REPONSE, First 40 (608), Andrew McIrvine


Lion Island Race 2012

•3rd IRC 1 & ORC 1, ABOUT TIME, Cookson 50 (541), Julian Farren-Price Australia


Palermo Montecarlo 2012

•1st IRC, TEAM LAURA, Cookson 50 (541), Garajo-Tognella
•2nd ORC, CATTTIVIK, First 40.7 (354), Miceli Manfredi
Monaco

Round Ireland Race 2012
•1st IRC Canting Keel, LEE OVERLAY PARTNERS, Cookson 50 (541), Adrian Lee


ORC Adriatic Trophy 2012

•1st Class A, CALIPSO IV, Cookson 50 (541), Piero Paniccia Italy



RORC Caribbean 600 2012

•1st IRC Canting Keel, GRAN JOTITI, VO70 (735), Ernesto Cortina
•2nd IRC Canting Keel & CSA OV, PRIVATEER, VO70 (541), Ron O'Hanley
•2nd Superyacht, SOJANA, Farr 115 (442), Peter Harrison
•3rd IRC 1, SMILE AND WAVE, Farr 40 (608), Jaime Torres
•3rd IRC 1, HIGH TENSION, Mumm 36 (299), Bernard Evan-Wong Antigua

Time will tell with Sydney to Hobart race.

Line honours.

Canting or fixed Keel

Handicap winner:

Canting or Fixed keel

If Canting Keels win both in the Sydney Hobart 2013

What will happen. Hmmmmmm ?

New Boats with Canting Keels in view off the cookson 50 success plus new small designed boats with canting Keels Designed for the NZ Coastal Clasic overseas races, international races and The Hobart Race ?

Prospects new 80 footer verses 100ft over all winner with the Canting keel .


If the 80 footer wins Well Canting Keels will flourish probably but that's hard to see in view off Wild oats X1 new foil center board near the bow plus new fibre Carbon lite weight taller mast to be able to remain competitive for an old design.

When was the last Sydney Hobart won by a fixed keel yacht.

Come in shooting.


OC

 

Well given that the Series boats are rapidly evolving to be the more competitive class in the Mini Transat (finishing 6th overall) And since more new Series boats are being commissioned than Protos - I'd say

"There you go again-a definitive statement that is simply FALSE!

 

The last Hobart to be won by a fixed keel yacht was 2011 (Loki); before that, 2010 (SMB 3.5), then 2009 (Two True, Ben 40), 2008 (Quest, TP52) etc etc etc.

 

You don't seem to understand that I am talking about numbers of fixed keelers v canters across the entire world fleet of offshore racing boats - not the numbers that do a few races with small fleets.

Canters form a very small proportion of the offshore racing fleet. That is a fact. Therefore it is hard to call them "popular" in the way that term is normally used.

The Vendee etc are great races but they attract small fleets, don't run every year, and attract vastly fewer participants than races like the Fastnet etc, in which the numbers are dominated by fixed keelers. There are over 300 boats that do the Fastnet and around a dozen of them are canters. There are around 6-8 canters about the 60-80 or so boats that do the Hobart and about (IIRC) 6 canters in the 180 or so that do the Bermuda. About 4 canters were in the 58 that did the last Transpac.

Add in the other offshore and ocean races in which the fleets are dominated by fixed keelers (Australia's Gold Coast and Westcoaster, the RORC season, the UNCL races, the Med races, etc etc etc) and the facts are pretty simple - in numerical terms the fixed keelers continue to absolutely dominate the world's offshore racing fleets. Fixed keelers are popular, canters are not popular.

Yes, a few races are dominated by canters - but very few. It's great to see 20 60 footers in the 2013 Vendee, but facts are facts - there were only 20 boats and a race with 20 canters is not as popular, in participation terms, as a race like Fastnet with around 300 fixed keelers! Even in a race like the TJV the canters are outnumbered by fixed keel boats.

BTW for most offshore racing sailors, the 60s and Minis are not all that important. Most offshore racers are on fully crewed fixed keelers that are sailing under, and trying to win, PHRF, IRC, LYS, FFV HN, ORCi or similar rules.

How many major offshore races have you done, by the way? A few Bermudas? SORC? Montego Bay once or twice? Or do you actually have little or no offshore racing experience?

 

So there's going to be what, 7 Volvo 65s?
And there are 25 or so active 60s and a few dozen Minis?

Fixed keelers sell in vastly bigger numbers than that. There were over 800 versions of the old Beneteau 40.7 (which won many, many races) built. Similar numbers are claimed for the 36.7. Lots of them raced offshore.

Facts are facts. The fleets in the world's ocean races are proof that the vast majority of boats racing offshore (and the vast majority of boats currently being built) are fixed keelers.

Yes, the canters do a lot of the prestigious pro ocean races. I never said that they didn't. That is not my point - my point is that the canting keelers remain a very small proportion of the total fleet of offshore racing yachts.

PS yes there are two or three Volvo 70s in this year's Hobart. They are not "new" boats as we use the term in this context down here, therefore they are irrelevant to a discussion about new boats.

 

Just found something relevant to this issue in a piece about a new RTW multi race. It is (another) passage describing how shorthanded oceanic racing is still failing to attract widespread participation;

" single handed sailing remains, in essence, a concept which is not shared. And that becomes difficult to comprehend when maritime cultures diverge. Ask the Anglo-Saxons what they think, and you will quickly find out that the single handed planetary escape is not the cup of tea of all sailors in the world... American, Canadian, English probably were the first to enter the race, but today they are very few to defend this form of navigation. Result: round the world singlehanded has gradually become the almost exclusive turf of French sailing, or even “Breton” sailing. 'A caste' regret a few, 'a chance', reply others."

As the piece says, there are very few English speakers involved in the big oceanic shorthanded events and even in France it is largely a passion of the Bretons. For most of the people in Australian offshore racing, for example, shorthanded racing attracts a "wow, cool, but not my thing" reaction. The canters that are used in shorthanded racers are also something that not many people concern themselves with as they are more interested in fixed keelers, whether new or old.

It's just the same as in other sports or disciplines. Most skiers don't do extreme skiiing, most racing cyclists don't do extreme cycling or use radical gear, most dinghy sailors don't sail skiffs or foilers.

Re the Volvo race - it looks as if they are going to be struggling to get to 8 entries. That hardly makes the Volvo 65s "popular".

I should add that my last offshore season (2 years ago?) was on a shorthanded offshore tri, that I have been a member of the shorthanded association and raced my own boat singlehanded in short offshores. I've sailed movable ballast boats. But while I am into shorthanded racing, most offshore racers are not and therefore what happens in the shorthanded scene with boat designs is not very relevant to most offshore racing sailors.