Sydney-Hobart 2013

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    SH Please keep threads friendly and polite to all other members.

    Quote

    "Please keep threads friendly and polite to all other members; no politics or religion"
    "Boat design MODERATOR."

    OC
     
  2. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    [​IMG]

    Plus

    Beau Geste 5 th on line -----7th Handicap. Gavin Brady / despite being navigated into a hole.
    Wild oats IRC 39
    Perpetual IRC 42
    Ragamuffin IRC 60
    Giacomo 6 th on line ----- 31 st Handicap.

    OC
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  3. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 79, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    Links to papers do not always remain working in perpetuity because of updates. Arab News, for example, appears to have updated their Hobart story; current one is at

    http://www.arabnews.com/news/499891

    The Guardian appears to have done the same;

    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/28/sydney-to-hobart-wild-oats-wins-line-honours

    The fact that links are going dead is an indication that papers are keeping their readers up to date on the race and therefore filing new stories, not an indication that they are ignoring it. NY Times, for example, issued a brief update 30 minutes ago; http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/sports/wild-oats-xi-equals-record.html

    Yes, some of the stories are superficial. Nowhere did I claim that was not the case. But the fact is that a quick Google shows that papers from the UK, Arab speaking world, Germany and USA are mentioning the event. Therefore there is evidence that claims of worldwide interest are not "BS" as claimed.
     
  4. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Their you go again changing the wording that does not refer to my original post or discussion.

    The wording is

    - "when the race starts at 1pm on Boxing Day it will capture the imagination of sailors and spectators worldwide"

    Operative words again, I mention, is "the imagination" not interest as you now trying to argue.

    Plus the wording is "when the racing starts" and not before as you tried to use urls and links to justify your arguement.

    NYTimes as proved with AC hardly any body reads yachting news in NY and it was a proven fact only about 1% in America about or knew about the AC. So the SH probably, point 0001%

    It certainly has not captured my imagination or numerous posters on this site.

    I hardly call 150 posts and 3600 hits on the subject capturing the imagination of sailors and spectators worldwide, when a post thread on this site titled "Star class performance graph"
    gets 1963 hits.

    Re the Guardian Link,

    Try the Sports page link that you have to click on first and see where that article appears, your url used to support your discussions. Blink and you will miss it. Read the other stories first and get called away to do something else, never getting to it or even seeing it being reported.


    But wait theres more still read the 23 comments on the same page blog, I copy and paste some,


    " The headline on the Sports page is misleading. It says Wild Oats XI won Sydney to Hobart, when they didn't. The article makes it quite clear that they won line honours, but not the race, which is based on handicap. Go to the race organisers, Cruising Yacht Club of Australia in Rushcutters Bay in Sydney and you will see only the handicap winners pictures on the wall."

    "Well from the start until they are through the heads after that normal life resumes. Who care which boat gets to Hobart first?
    They are sailing the same route every year and that puts one to sleep.
    how many times has Wild Oats XI participated in this race? They and Ragamuffin's lot can do the race blindfolded. The skippers probably sleep off their Xmas hung overs."

    "Tony AbbottSucks.
    Totally agree - who the hell cares? Its a bit like who cares who won the down hill whatever at perisher , or who won the Polo at ????, ."

    "santos25
    28 December 2013 3:05pm

    Recommend
    0That SODAMIX fellow further up pretends he and others are interested."


    Heres a positive

    "JeffreyW
    28 December 2013 3:43pm

    Recommend
    5Boy, some of you land-lubbers are grouchy about the Sydney-Hobart. None of us are real "yachties," but here's how we have fun with the race over the Christmas holidays without leaving the house:

    We draw up a pool with family and friends and try to pick the winners in different categories: first out of the harbor, line honors, handicap winner and first to retire. You could make even more categories for the different boat classes if you want. Of course, there'll be the usual bickering because everyone will want to pick Wild Oats XI for line honors, but what are the holidays for. So, go on, have a bit of fun and stop bitchin' about the race."

    " Full disclosure: I own a 22' sloop and sail her on Lake George in the Adirondacks (I'm not considering a run to Hobart, however)."

    "RobBanksiaMan
    28 December 2013 8:22pm

    Recommend
    1The sheer expense of buying, maintaining, crewing and racing one of these boats is huge, and that financial outlay does not come from personal wealth because those in this so-called sport factor in the cost of their hobby into the fees charged in their professional dealings. Everyone is paying for this race in one way or another. Then there is the cost to the community in providing the required rescue services and the media coverage. The only news about this race I'm interested in but never see is whether prices will rise on goods and services when a spinniker costing $250,000 breaks or an even more expensive mast snaps. I'd also like to know why we do not have padded cells for those influenced by the sponsored ads on the boats."

    " baghead
    29 December 2013 1:27am

    Recommend
    2As a yotty me self it sure would be nice if the actual winners got a mention now and again, the whole point of yacht racing like this is that the boat is measured and gets a handicap, line honours only matter in one design racing."

    "Raldat
    29 December 2013 8:28pm

    Recommend
    0Yep, it is a money laden and disgusting sport. Nothing like those wholesome football clubs. No money there..."

    Real capturing imagination stuff, I think not. and I do not associate myself with any of these comments posts or endorse them, only post them to show how in some parts of the world what the SH means to different peoples.


    In addition the members count for boat design is approx 1000 members. 150 post SH many repeat members posts. Why the lack with members expressing themselves. Can only assume their imaginations have not been captured as well. Then there are the general public that visit sites as non members. If their imaginations had been captured, surely they would instanly sign on as members and support this topic SH Race.

    Could it be they don't have confidence to post or try to participate by posting because members like you, corley and rwatson be little, insult, abuse, fellow posters that try to participate and get internet bullied.
    Your new law re abuse just been past now includes in the work place, retail shops customers abusing staff which can attract a $10,500 fine and a no trespass period notice.

    Employers can use internet sites that employees abuse other staff members to justify and attract dismissal occurences and can be used as evidence in civil court cases as well.

    I wonder what the interest would have been if Doug did not post like he did and got challenged for it as well, he educates many members and yet he as far as I can find has never abused a single member and it seems to me he is always polite and never professes to be a know all.

    Some times but not offen he may be wrong but my observation is when he nears that point all hell zooms in on him. Why?

    OC
     
  5. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Thanks.

    OC
     
  6. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    [​IMG]


    Not only by Handicap but HOPEFULLY the


    OVER ALL RACE


    Past quote from the history page FOR 2009.

    "Neville Crichton's Alfa Romeo from New Zealand won the protracted line honours clash of the eight super maxis in the 65th edition of the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race, ending the four-year dominance of Wild Oats XI, the race record holder from NSW owned by Bob Oatley and skippered by Mark Richards."

    "Alfa Romeo finished the race in 2 days 9 hours 2 minutes 10 seconds but it was a South Australian yacht Two True, a brand new Beneteau First 40, owned by orthopaedic surgeon Andrew Saies, that won the race overall. Before being declared the winner, Saies had to wait a nail-biting 24 hours and survive a protest hearing relating to an incident on Sydney Harbour at the start of the 628 nautical mile race. Once the international jury dismissed the protest, Saies' Two True was declared the overall winner."

    OC
     
  7. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,679
    Likes: 343, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    This is for those that may not understand what I meant by "not designed from scratch as a DSS boat" in reference to WOXI. It is from a press release posted on the Infinity 36 website:

    Press release issued on 29/12/2013

    DSS foil powers Wild Oats XI to 7th Rolex Sydney Hobart line honours

    Infiniti Yachts Ltd and its sales team at Yachtzoo, Monaco congratulate Bob Oatley’s Wild Oats XI team for its record-levelling seventh line honours victory in the 2013 Rolex Sydney Hobart. Infiniti Yachts has the revolutionary Dynamic Stability System (DSS) at the core of its design and as such provides unparalleled performance and comfort.

    Part of the Australian 100 footer’s success in this year’s race can be directly attributed to the DSS foil fitted to Wild Oats XI this season. Some 10 years in development, the patent-protected DSS foil runs laterally across the boat and when required can be deployed to leeward beneath the waterline. The vertical lift this provides, which increases with the speed of the yacht, dramatically improves righting moment, an effect similar to having many more crew on the weather rail. This in turn translates into the boat having more power, less drag and therefore improved performance.

    On Wild Oats XI, the DSS foil protrudes from the leeward side of the hull by just over 2m and the foil provides eight to ten tonnes of vertical lift. The added righting moment the foil provided in the Rolex Sydney Hobart was also vital in enabling Wild Oats XI, with her narrow beam of 5.2m, to compete with the newer and more powerful Perpetual LOYAL, which has a beam of 7.4m, in bigger conditions and points of sail when righting moment was a key factor.

    “The trial results were quite remarkable. There was an impressive increase in speed,” said Wild Oats XI skipper Mark Richards of the effect of the DSS foil prior to the Boxing Day start. Following the race he enthused how they hit 35 knots boat speed at one stage. “The new foils were phenomenal,' he said. “They gave us a lot more control in the extreme conditions, and the hard running we did today.”

    Chris Links, one of Wild Oats XI’s helmsmen, said of the DSS foil before the race: “It gives us some more stability in those tighter angles and in the heavy downwind it lifts the bow 300mm. In those steep little seas it helps get us on to the waves and surf for longer. We have seen it really work a couple of times, which has really blown us away when it clicks in.”

    Arriving in Hobart, tactician Iain Murray attributed a 5% gain in Wild Oats XI’s speed to the DSS foil, which had been put to good work as the wind built to more than 30 knots coming down the east coast of Tasmania and continued to build as they hardened up to cross the aptly named Storm Bay.

    In fact according to the DSS’s creator British yacht designer Hugh Welbourn, Wild Oats XI’s retro-fitted foil can be considered a ‘DSS-lite’, and therefore only achieves a relatively small percentage increase in performance compared to what would be expected with from an Infiniti yacht where the DSS foil is integral to the original design. It has a smaller area and is shorter than would normally be fitted to a 100ft maxi. It is also straight, whereas DSS foils normally have some curvature to them that raises the tip of the foil when it is deployed, creating yet more lift.

    Wild Oats XI is the one of the latest to be fitted with a DSS foil, however Infiniti Yachts have several Welbourn designs that have been created specifically to harness the potential of the foil. Rather than gaining righting moment from traditional features such as keel bulb weight or draft or waterline beam, the Infiniti Yachts are typically lighter and more slender than many other designs, deriving a greater portion of their righting moment from the DSS foil. This is a highly potent combination providing blistering pace off the wind in anything above light to moderate conditions and a fine, low drag hull in light conditions when the DSS foil is simply retracted into the hull. Upwind the DSS foil produces less righting moment but decreases pitching and heeling, resulting in better performance and more comfort.

    The Infiniti 100R for example weighs just over 20 tonnes making her the world’s lightest 100ft offshore racing monohull, capable of covering more than 700 miles/day. All the Infiniti Yacht designs benefit from DSS and its significant improvement in performance and comfort.

    “It is great to see Wild Oats XI perform so well and this gives us even greater confidence that the Infiniti 100R*, which is lighter and has much more optimised DSS foils, will perform as we expect and will deliver our clients something truly spectacular and unique,” said Infiniti Yachts’ Gordon Kay.
    * the new 100 footer

    Chris Richardson from Yachtzoo added: “We at Yachtzoo are delighted to see DSS leading the field in a top quality event and are proud to be the exclusive sales team for Infiniti Yachts.”

    DSS creator Hugh Welbourn said: “This race has been a great demonstration of the effectiveness of DSS even when not allied with a purpose-designed hull and rig. However even when the configuration is less than ideal, it’s been good to see the dramatic benefits being well repaid in this victory for Wild Oats XI against a quality fleet, and reinforcing the belief we have in our technology and its application to varying design configurations.”

    (emphasis DL)
    ===========================
    Wild Oats XI (more or less) Explained:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPlAWsmITBg
     
  8. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member




    Thanks DOUG

    Plus
    Original Statement



    http://www.boatingbusiness.com/news101/industry-news/the_next_revolution_in_yachting


    Designer



    http://www.dynamicstabilitysystems.com/dss-technology/


    [​IMG]


    "DSS provides a major change in how these vessels and their skippers can perform. Having twin boards deployed means that uncontrolled gybes under autopilot do not find the canting keel on the wrong side of the boat!"

    "DSS is significantly more cost-effective than canting keels in terms of both construction and engineering but also in maintenance and insurance costs"

    'We are seeing speed increases of well over 25% when retrofitting the system on a conventional fixed keel yacht and on a DSS yacht, where the system is integral to the design, we are seeing increases of 40%+.'



    HANDICAP RESULTS

    http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/standings/?raceId=101&categoryId=436&raceTime=


    OC
     
  9. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,679
    Likes: 343, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    You're welcome.. Could you resize that picture so that it doesn't blast the page so that to read anything you have to use the sliding bar at the bottom-please. Thanks and Happy New Year!
     
  10. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Tutor

    Tell us how, give the details

    if it bothers you, by pm


    Many happies and continued happy polite postings.
    OC
     
  11. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 79, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    Oceancruiser;

    It seems to be pulling a long bow to claim that a race can be widely reported (as the Hobart is) and yet not capture the imagination of any of those readers. I know from personal discussions that the Hobart captures the imagination of some sailors in every country that I have sailed in (with the exception of Italy, where I have only sailed windsurfers and therefore have not talked ocean racing) and therefore it appears highly likely that it does in fact capture the imagination of sailors and spectators worldwide.

    No evidence that the number of TV viewers, or the fact that the race captures the imagination of people worldwide, has been presented by you. Therefore your dismissive comments about the race's impact have not been proven. What has been proven is that the race attracts press coverage around the world and that many people watch in live and (probably) on TV. In my experience, some of them DO have their imagination captured by the race and extrapolating from that, many more doubtless would also have their imagination captured by the race. That is all that I am saying.

    The fact that there are higher-impact stories on the NYT or Guardian is irrelevant. I did not claim that the Hobart was the highest-rating story. The fact that some of the media reported before the start is a demonstration of the widespread interest in the race.

    The fact that some posters may dislike the Hobart is also irrelevant. I never claimed that everyone loved it. I'm in two minds about it myself; I like the race but dislike the fact that its place in the sailing universe seems to be over-rated by a lot of the media and many non-sailors. However, the fact that I may believe that the race is over-hyped does not remove the fact that I have, however, spoken to people from places like South Africa, the USA, UK and the Netherlands who have spoken of the grip the Hobart has on their imagination as sailors.



    I don't start abuse here. I don't like abuse, and that is actually why I have become embroiled in this discussion with you. I started a discussion because it seemed that you were "calling BS" on the claims made about the S-H, therefore implying that someone was making stuff up. I took issue because you did not, and have not, provided evidence that it was "BS".

    I also took issue with RWatson's implication that Tom Addis was saying something that was not truthful. There is a vast world of difference between taking issue with people who claim that others are making stuff up, as I have done, and internet bullying. There does seem to be a practise on BDF whereby people can attack the honesty of other people and then get upset when asked to substantiate their claims.

    I have, and will, discuss what seem to be over-the-top claims made here but I try to discuss things on technical grounds rather than simply effectively calling other people liars, as you have done.

    Anyway, enough of this.
     
  12. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    CT 249 every thing is relevant. Its not only posters here on this site it's all around the world as I have only shown a few. Where are all the posters claimimg it is the greatest and has captured their imagination not only on this site but all around the world.

    The imagination is your imagination. Where has the word liar or liars been used. No where yes. Only you have been abusive and rwatson, and corley.

    Although rwatson was making a suggestion which he is entitled to on the facts and press releases I don't condone his impoliteness.
    He was probably going on the designers and patented owners statements.

    "There appears to be no particular size limitations either using the system – we have run analyses from small boats right up to 190ft and physical scale effects are very much working in favour of DSS,' said Welbourn. 'We are seeing speed increases of well over 25% when retrofitting the system on a conventional fixed keel yacht and on a DSS yacht, where the system is integral to the design, we are seeing increases of 40%+."

    Handicap results.

    32 Wild Oats XI
    Robert Oatley NSW 0 FINISHED 1.973 04:10:47:135.9
    30 Dec, 11:47:13 PM
    33 Perpetual LOYAL
    Anthony Bell NSW 0 FINISHED 1.873 04:11:23:005.9
    31 Dec, 12:23:00 AM

    How come with all the go fast foils exct it beats a no go fast boat on handicap when wild oats only had appox 100nms favourable nms during the 628 nm race. Imagine if it was 100% following winds the whole race at 40 knts. Probably would have won by 3 hrs on handicap and broke the record further by another 20% or more.

    Same arguement if it was on the nose race all the way at 30 knots.

    It would appear from the race Wild oatsXI has a favourable handicap. Recorded the highest top speed as well. Apply that top speed to the whole race which will probably happen in future SH races. What will it look like then. Winning on handicap by 4 hrs or more.


    Whats more how many is some and many. Some and many is aproximately 3 - 8

    Quite a few is 9 - 60

    100's is 100 to a thousand,

    Thousands is 1000 - 900,00,

    Millions is 1 million and more.

    Your quote again,

    "No evidence that the number of TV viewers, or the fact that the race captures the imagination of people worldwide, has been presented by you."

    There is no evidence. Only evidence is that it has not captured the imagination of 100,s of millions of people around the world and I have presented such sample evidence.

    You are pushing up hill with your arguement.

    It would appear it has not captured your imagination either. Your Quote.

    "I'm in two minds about it myself:"

    You are undecided by your admission.

    I object to your statement I have called people on BDF liars, and its not anyway, its forward thinking, action and called politeness, friendly, and tolerance to your fellow members.




    In addition the members count for boat design is approx 1000 members. 150 post SH many repeat members posts. Why the lack with members expressing themselves. Can only assume their imaginations have not been captured as well. Then there are the general public that visit sites as non members. If their imaginations had been captured, surely they would instanly sign on as members and support this topic SH Race.




    OC
     
  13. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 79, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    For a start, let me admit once more (as I have done earlier on BDF) that I may be rather thin-skinned when it comes to criticism of people I know and events I enjoy. A lot of the criticism of major events like the Hobart or "mainstream" racing does not seem to be very productive and IMHO the climate of criticising such parts of our sport is likely to be a significant cause of the downturn in sailing's popularity.

    Being undecided about a race in some ways does not mean that it does not capture my imagination. The race definitely captures my imagination but I do feel that there are other issues with it.

    I also know for a fact that the S-H captures the imagination of some people from outside Oz who have done Fastnets, Bermudas and Trans-Atlantic races because they have told me so themselves.

    The small number of people on this thread may say more about the fact that BDF seems to attract only a small number of people who actually take part in ocean racing than it does about the Hobart. The S-H thread on Sailing Anarchy is massive - 30 pages, 160,000+ views. There are also associated threads on Hobart boats such as Beau Geste and Black Jack (40,000 views together) etc. In comparison the current Clipper race thread has 3,000 views, Sydney-Gold Coast 3,000 views, OSTAR 2013 6,000 views, and Fastnet 8,000 views.

    Yes, people on BDF should not be rude to each other. Please therefore stop insulting other people on this forum, as you have done repeatedly. I'm putting you on ignore now; by!
     
  14. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    CT249
    Your quote:

    " A lot of the criticism of major events like the Hobart or "mainstream" racing does not seem to be very productive and IMHO the climate of criticising such parts of our sport is likely to be a significant cause of the downturn in sailing's popularity."

    Am I allowed to laugh.

    SH this year 30 starters perhaps as a result with this thread.

    You still have not quoted where I have called members on BDF Liars. You have been the only member using that word directly.

    OC
     

  15. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Here is a story worth reading from SA.


    "UPDATE: We spent many hours and imbibed liters of rum digging for the real stories of the race late last night at the infamous Customs House; open for 24 hours a day for the next four days, this bar/pub makes about 20% of its annual revenue in one week, thanks to the sailors who rarely leave there until it’s time to go home. Last night, we dug deep and picked up our ‘Epic Story of the Hobart” so far, and here it is (with apologies to a rum haze for any minor inaccuracies or embellishments):

    With 35 knots up the *** (before the Westerly change),The VO 70 Blackjack (ex-Telefonica) had a few miles lead over Beau Geste and Giacomo (ex-Groupama 70), with Wild Thing a bit back. BJ went for her final gybe to clear the island, and when the main snapped across, they broke a batten; I think I remember they had an A5 and two tucks in. The batten pierced the 3DI mainsail and zippered it from leech to luff. Half the sail came down and the rest stayed up.

    Now they have half a sail violently flogging up the mast with no way to bring it down; up goes the bowman on a halyard to cut it free. During the drama, BG, Gia, and WT all get through ahead. Mind you this is at about 11 at night and nothing but nav lights and spray are visible… BO Peter Harburg – who is as cool as can be – told me “We went from 4th to 7th in a few minutes and I just went to bed.

    What was I going to tell my wife?”

    Meantime, the crew got the trysail on and set the FrO, and guess what? They
    f ******g ground down the 100 footer, then the Volvo 70, then the 80 foot Beau Geste, and they only beat Karl Kwok’s brand new beast over the line by something like 50 seconds. Giacomo came in a minute later. Harburg (who had barely slept until after losing the mainsail) popped up from his 3 hour nap to find he’d gone back from 7th to 4th.

    I hit them up at the dock just a few minutes after they tied up, and in contrast to the BG and GIA guys, Harburg was completely charged up and full of energy. He was hanging out at the stern, watching the crew clean up and smiling his *** off as he pulled off the tracker to return it to the race official in exchange for two slabs of complimentary beer. He smiled and told me “beating those boys across the line without a mainsail? To me, that felt like we just pulled a line honors victory.”

    Later on I spoke to Rod Keenan off Giacomo, a long time Anarchist and ultra-talented sailmaker from Auckland with a list of wins as long as the list of banned SA forum members. Rod laughed when he told me “who would have thought a trysail was the fastest sail for those conditions, but when three reefs is still too much area, maybe that’s what you have to do.”

    A Real Great Story.

    OC
     
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