Sydney-Hobart 2006-Battle of the Canters

I respect your opinion, but as you know, I have a different opinion about BIG Ocean races. I believe that in these ones, handicap racing is becoming a joke. Sure, class classifications are alright, but handicap? Who gives a dam about the oldest boat in the fleet, running in the 36th place and the leader of the race (on handicap)? For me, and increasingly for many people, the big winner is the first to arrive.

And fact is that in this race all leading boats (in real time) are canting keelers. Last year also, as well as in all big ocean races where they have raced against fixed keelers. About the Cats, I don’t think they would be concerned with handicaps, they would be more interested in winning the race, I mean in real time.

 

It may be that the situation looks different whether you're used to looking at it from the inside or the outside. All but 5 of the boats in this year's Hobart are there for the handicap prize. The problem with having a race based on classes based on a box rule or LOA is that basically not a single place in the entire country would have a decent sized fleet of boats in any one of the classes.

And many, many people give a damn about the oldest boat in the fleet. It's already scored page 2 in our biggest paper. Last time I did the race, on the smallest boat, we scored front page on Sydney's biggest paper and in Hobart's biggest (only??) paper. I mentioned earlier about the international sporting commentator from the Uk who said that his strongest memory of the Hobart was looking at the smallest boat ever to win it. When Zeus II came close to winning a few years ago, it was quite big news. There may even be an international difference here; in Australia we tend to love the underdog. A story about an average family's beautiful 40 very old varnished boat beating all the multi-squillionaires would be headline news. In contrast, "Rich man beats another rich man in yacht race" isn't breathtaking stuff.

Why should the average sailor care about the big boats? The average sailor will never get to sail on one. They are utterly remote. The big boats were racing offshore in the 1800s, but the sport remained tiny until the small boats took over.

A similar thing is happening in Sydney. The Sydney harbour offshore fleet includes various big boats (Open 60, Volvos, 98 footers when they are home, etc) and the fleet is much smaller than it used to be. The fleet from a tiny shallow-water puddle on the south end of town has much smaller boats, and the fleet is allegedly actually getting bigger numbers than the world-famous Sydney Harbour does. Why? Because a higher proportion of people can afford to play the game. Even there, according to the commodore of one of the YCs, there's a shift to bigger boats that is threatening the growing fleet, because it creates very frustrating crew shortages.

The Bermuda race doesn't think handicap racing is a joke, and the Bermuda race is getting record fleets recently. Fastnet doesn't think handicap is a joke, and its fleets are strong.

You say the cats may not be concerned with handicaps - but in that case why do multis here race on handicap? How many small or cruiser/racer multis would bother to race knowing that they would get beaten by the bigger racing multis? It's like putting a streamlined recumbent in the Tour de France, or a motorbike. Sure it's faster - who cares? Would you put a 22 foot tri into the Mini Transat?*

In the end, I suppose it depends who you think is more important; the people who watch, or the people who actually create the race by sailing each weekend and then entering the Hobart. Overwhelmingly, the people who sail each weekend sail IRC type yachts, because they are well suited to racing in fleets that are inevitably a mixture of ages and styles, and race lengths. Do you want to take the race that they and their type created away from them??

People say "well, the cats should be allowed to do the Hobart because it is the great Australian classic race"; but why haven't the multis been able to create a great race of their own if they are so spectacular? Years ago they tried to get the Euro multis out for a round Australia race. Not a single one of them turned up. This place is too far from their main audience, and few of their sponsors want to sell things to a mere 20 million Aussies.

I've been asked to sail on a very fast big cat that is standing by for the right weather window to try to break the Sydney-Hobart record. As a mate (an organiser of a major multi regatta) said, it seems a bit pointless. It's like sailing in a Laser regatta on a Tornado. Sure it's faster, but who cares? If I want to get to Hobart faster I'll take a plane.

* which started out with a fairly loose rule.

 

Sydney-Hobart

Man,I wish the crew that was injured on Maximus the best! I was really looking forward to the race between Maximus and Wild Oats. The Maximus guys had complained before the race that due to business commitments they hadn't really had enough time to prepare. I hope the guys will be ok!
Too bad as well for Mike Sanderson and the guys on ABN-Amro-losing the mast while leading-what a drag....
I see no problem in letting cats in the Sydney-Hobart-too bad the powers that be have a problem. Of course, the cat/tri sailors would have to sign a pledge that they wouldn't whine and cry when a canting keel/on-deck movable ballast monofoiler won line honors repeatedly---
they might find that hard to take.
Go Wild Oats!

 

CT, see what I mean, that old boat (1968) that was leading the race in handicap has just put out a mayday. The boat is making water.

http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/news.asp?key=2957

Now the leader of the race (handicap) is another old boat, a 1974 S&S. If I remember correctly the last Fastnet was also won by an oldie. Do you find normal that you have to have an old and slower boat to win races? It seems to me that they have an unfair advantage in handicap and that racing old boats to win makes no sense.

 

Sh

SA thread-:
Sydney to Hobart - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45297&st=300&

 

Yep, I find it perfectly normal to have an older and slower boat win races. It's a good thing. What else do you do with older racing boats?

So Mr Average Owner decides to go offshore racing. He probably already owns a popular boat; maybe a Beneteau. Should he have to sell the boat that he has already selected as being the right boat for him, if he is to be competitive? Why would that encourage people to enter racing? Since he has a Beneteau, and you want to reward him if he sails well, you should have a rule that allows cruiser/racers to be competitive. Such a rule will often also assist older yachts.

Assuming Mr Average Owner does sell his Beneteau, buy a race boat and do well for a season or two. Eventually his raceboat will become older. What does he do with it then? Refitting it into a cruiser can be more expensive than just throwing it on the rubbish tip. But a badly superseded raceboat is worth very little. Why would you bother to own a racing machine that cannot win races? Why bother to spend $$$$$ going to the start line when you have almost no chance of doing well no matter how well you sail?

How does it help the growth and strength of the sport to make boats obsolete quickly? If owners make enormous losses on their does it help owners to buy new boats when they make an enormous loss on the outmoded boat's resale? What happens to these outmoded old boats? Who wants them? Basically I can't see any good points in making boats obsolete. One thing that is interesting is that the UK and Australia were pioneers in age allowance, and even in dinghies, cats and skiffs they have systems that allow old boats to be competitive. Significantly, the UK and Australia have very strong offshore fleets, and the strongest development-class dinghy, cat and skiff fleets in the world (with perhaps the exception of the US 14 fleet, but they have 220 million people!). The two are linked; people cannot afford to build new boats if they lose too much money on the old boats.

Love and War, the old boat currently leading, is a beautiful yacht. She is, in some ways, superior to modern boats in the opinion of many people. I think her crew could have got on board many of the fastest boats, but they love the feel of the old boat. A rule that allows a boat like her to do well allows freedom of choice. If you got your dream cruising yacht and found you wanted to race her, you could under IRC. You could have your dream boat AND race competitively. Isn't that better than being told (in effect) you have to have a lightweight canting or water ballasted racer or you'll finish last? If you don't want to go out and sail a boat like Love and War, you don't have to. But if you want to go out and sail such a boat and win, you can. That's a wonderful thing.

Okay, a new boat will be faster. But really, why in the world would you worry about spending 4 times the cost to go 8 knots instead of 6.5? What is so terrible about sailing that you have to finish the race in 5 days instead of 6? Is it worth spending say $300,000 (representing the lost value of a boat with very low resale) to spend LESS time taking part in the sport you love? I do Hobarts because I LIKE doing a long race.

If going fast is the goal, why sail monos? Why not sail a tri or cat? Why sail upwind or in light winds? Why not just reach around in strong winds like some windsurfers?

Which reminds me; even the professional windsurfers found that too much obsolescence makes the sport prohibitively expensive. And there is basically no evidence that going faster makes the sport stronger or more popular.

By the way overall entries "Open style" races suggested for the Class 40 are; 24 for Transat J.v.; "about 20" for the Global; a strong 60+ for the R d Rhum. But these are raced only every 4 years. If their format is so good, why do they get so many fewer boats than the Hobart, Fastnet, Bermuda etc get each year or two?? Even in a "small" year, the Hobart has some 1000 sailors; why is that an inferior system to the races that have 20-60+ sailors? Sure, they are not entirely comparable, but a boat that does the Hobart each year (as many do) actually does more sea miles in the race and delivery every 4 years than a R d R boat does in its race every 4 years. Surely it is significant that the Bermuda gets twice as many boats as the R D R, TJV and Global can get COMBINED!

Basically,whenever I try to work out what is best for sailing, I look at what is actually working - the races and classes that get big and growing or strong entries is what interests me. It may seem logical that faster boats will increase the sport, but that goes against most of the evidence. It's a situation where we should test theories against what really happens, and what really happens is that most people - and most of them are intelligent, experienced people - choose to sail rating racer/cruisers or one designs. What really happens is that the big races, the ones that attract big fleets, are rating races. It could be said that the TJV and R d R etc are pro races, but there's only 20-60 pros in them. Each Hobart or Fastnet would have that many pros, probably many more.

Nor are people very conservative. Many are very fast adopters; look at the way the successful classes (IOR ton classes, Mumm 36, Farr 40, Sydney 38, Sigma 33, Windsurfer, Formula board, Hobie, etc) caught on. Sometimes it seems that people ignore what the typical good sailor wants, and then they assume that they are conservative.

PS - old boats are not generally thought to have an unfair advantage. They don't normally win. They do well sometimes, when conditions suit them, they are well equipped, and well sailed. Sounds good to me. How would it help the sport to tell people "it doesn't matter how well you sail your boat; it doesn't matter how much you spend on it; you will be beaten because we won't handicap for the age or weight of your boat. If you want to win, you must sail this stripped-out racing machine"?

It's a bit like saying to dinghy sailors "you cannot sail a Snipe, Merlin Rocket, National 12 or Laser and hope to win, you must sail an International 14 or 18 Foot Skiff or MPS". You'd lose almost every sailor, because they like the boats they sail and that is why they sail them. Class racing is not a viable answer in most places because you can't gen enough boats.

EDIT - The slow old 1973 vintage boat that was leading the race on IRC is currently 12 miles ahead of the only Open 60 in the race!

 

CT, you make good sense and based on the sociology (for want of a better word) of the yacht racing multitude.The longevity of the S34 class here is the result of strict class rules maintainance.

My thought were purely a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that engine assisted movable ballast boats were ever allowed in the S.H.

 

I sympathize with your way of looking at the situation and I was felling kind of lonely in the way I was looking at it, till I had a look at the “Anarchist” thread about the race. They are enthusiasts and they have been running a big and interesting thread about the race:

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45297&st=300&

and they don’t give a dam about the handicap leader. The only posts about the old boat that was leading the race were posted when it went down. No posts or comments about the next leader, the old S&S. The attention was and is all in the leading boats in real time and on some smaller boats that are making a hell of a race, like that R&P 46 or the Kaiko 51 or the Cookson 50. I felt a lot less lonely on the way I was looking at the race, because I was looking at the same boats. It looks that we share common interests and that there are more people looking at it the same way I look.

When the race is over, I will take a look at the International press to see the relevance they give to the “real” winner (handicap), versus the boat that arrives first in real time.

But I believe you are right about what you are saying. Obviously that race is bigger than the sailing Australian community, and I believe that it has the potential to be turned in one of the International big Ocean racing events, and that means that all the Ocean fastest boats should race it.

You have two choices, keep it local and with time the race will disappear as a major international race, or give it the conditions to attract all the fastest boats on the planet and it will remain a major event. Or by other words, keep it to the ones that have created it or turn it in a major event on the professional circuit (the one that does not exist yet, but that will be a reality in the near future).

“Why should the average sailor care about the big boats? The average sailor will never get to sail on one. They are utterly remote.”

For the same reason that an amateur touring budget car racer loves F1.

 

Sh

Looks like Wild Oats is stretching her lead with "Ichi Ban" now in second after Skandia lost her forward canard. So far as I can tell none of the canters are having keel problems(knock on wood).
Go Wild Oats!
PS Looks like "Ichi Ban"( Volvo 70) is first on handicap....

 

Oh jeepers Vega.

For a start, your facts are wrong. My count of the posts on the last complete page indictes that there are 50% more posts on IRC than on line honours. And when the race is on, people tend to look at line honours because IRC remains in doubt for longer as it is only decided when the small boats finish. Initially, also, no IRC placings are given; they aren't calculated for some time.

IRC is harder to call because it depends so much on the weather. That's why no one discusses the IRC chances much before or early on in the race. But the sailors know who the real winner is - the IRC winner. The sailing press always says that the IRC winner is the "real" winner. I just pulled out the first two mags with Hobart coverage from my bookshelf. The first one (from the UK) referred to the handicap winner as "the winner". The second (local mag) gave more space to the corrected time placings. I admit, there has been more emphasis on line honours recently, partly driven by sponsorship. In that time, fleets have dropped.

Do I tell you about what the offshore racers of Portugal think is important? No. So please don't tell me what the offshore racers of Australia think is important - I used to have to satisfy thousands of them every month when I was a magazine editor. The best way to lose sales and get a barrage of complaints from the people who actually sail is to put too much emphasis on big boats.

It is completely factually incorrect to say "they don't give a damn about the handicap leader" when the majority of posts (on the last complete page) dealing with either line or IRC were about the latter (try 307, 308, 309, 311, 316, 318, 320, 321, 325, 335, 341, 349, etc). Most of the rest are about the damage and sinkings. The maxis are there disproportionately because most of them have been in trouble.

Often, the posts about IRC contenders refer to their placing over the line, but that iis because it is a simple way to illustrate how they are going; just in the same way you may say a football team has reached the halfway line, irrespective of whether they are winning or losing.

Secondly, the R/P 46, Cookson 50 and Kaiko 50 are NOT the sort of boat that you have been advocating. The R/P 46 is an IRC racer; the Kaiko a racer/cruiser; the Cookson has different mods. The only Open type boat in the race is about 40th in line honours.

When the race is over, I wouldn't give much concern to what the international press think. They don't enter the race, they don't sail the race, they don't really matter. The local press has repeatedly referred to Love and War and the other old boats today.

I find it strange that you say the race "has the potential to turn into a major International event". It has been so for many years. Even 35 years ago, there were 3 US maxis amidst a total of 15 overseas entries! The Hobart has had vastly more overseas entries than the only time a big time "pro" multi/shorthanded race was tried here.

"The fastest boats in the planet" are not allowed to enter the transatlantic races, the Route de Rhum, the Globe, or just about any other race - why should they be allowed to race in the Hobart?

There is already a very strong professional ocean racing circuit - it consists of the professionals who are paid to race conventional boats like IRC boats, Farr 40s, TP 52s, Mumms etc. The other pro racing circuit I think you're dreaming of is a pipe dream that has been flopping for years. The VOlvo has been getting ever smaller. The Doha race ended up with no prizemoney. The singlehanded transat is a small event, a shadow of its former self.

The "international pro races" of which you write are almost all very small events, rarely run, compared to the real major races such as the Hobart, Bermuda and Fastnet. The "international pro races" are in many cases getting weaker - look at the death of the 60' tris inshore circuit. The boats in the Route de Rhum are smaller than they were when the race started - hardly an advertisement for hte "pro" route.

Any analogy to car racing is very risky, because car racing is (in the UK and Australia, at any rate) no bigger than sailing despite the fact that far more people can drive and own a car, than know how to sail. Why follow a model that converts fewer people to racing?

 

regarding CT 249's argument

from sailinganarchy (http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45297&st=400)
(as I quote this I am supposing this queery could be from CT himself?)

interesting argument to follow.

Personally (from a amatuer's perspective) I am much more interested in the little old boats. Especially the woodies- but then I am heavily biased in this

I have been following Maluka's impressive (to me) performance


and of course,
RIP Koomooloo


Hans.

 

Ct, I was nor proposing nor criticizing options. I have said that in my opinion that race, like the Fastnet will have a choice to make. I can be wrong and I certainly have not said what the correct choice is. That will depend on the Australians. If you have understood otherwise, I apologize.

Fact is that yacht racing, with the exception of the America Cup, are small international events. I mean, The Route du Rhum is big for the French Public but do you see there Australian boats, or has it a big coverage in Australia? Or do you have French boats in the Sidney-Hobart, that certainly is big for Aussies but, for instance, not a big deal for French, and I don’t mean sailors, but to the general public. When I was talking about international races I mean races that the best oceanracers worldwide could not miss.

I was not diminishing the Sidney-Hobart when I have said that it has the potential to be one of those true International ocean races. These races don’t exist yet in a sense that the international participations are not significant of the best boats and best sailors, nor the interest for a given race is worldwide, like in the F1 or in the American Cup, for instance.

Such a race has to be a big international event and the International Press and coverage is fundamental. Money comes from advertising and Sponsors are only interested if there is a huge coverage and a huge coverage only happens if lots of people are interested, and most of those have to be non-sailors, because otherwise it would not be a lot of people. So I think that International Press and coverage matters, unless you want that this race remains mainly an Aussie-NZ race, and that, as I have said It is for the Australians to decide.


You keep saying that I advocate some type of boat. What I would like to see is an open rule with a limitation on draft and with classes based on length. I am for fast and seaworthy boats and those boats (that you quoted) proved they were just that, showing that smaller boats can be faster than bigger boats in real time. Of course, I am also for a maximum freedom in designing a boat but that does not limit the shape or type of the boat, quite the contrary; this gives the designers a lot more freedom to produce innovative good and faster boats.

"The fastest boats in the planet" are not allowed to enter the transatlantic races, the Route de Rhum, the Globe, or just about any other race - why should they be allowed to race in the Hobart?

Yes I agree, and I think that has to change. Why not races, for instance “La Route du Rhum”, or the Sidney-Hobart open to all classes? It certainly would turn them in major events with a lot more coverage and more international publicity that is indispensable to global events and to big sponsorships.

Ct, I had the impression that I was annoying you. Again I apologize if that was the case. The fact that I would like to see this and other big ocean races, raced with more international participation and more fast boats, and the emphasis in fast, is probably a difference of opinion that does not diminish this race that I love and follow always with a lot of interest.

Regards

 

Hans, Maluka is not only a beautiful boat but it is also doing a great race (what means Maluka?).

Guys what happened to Wild Oats? They show a speed of only 4.7K on that interactive map. They have a problem?

And Berrimiglia and those two crazy old men (I have the utmost respect for them). They are only making 1.9K. Are they in trouble?

 

Vega, the ideas of length classes and allowing almost unlimited boats to enter has been tried several times before. Look at The Race which created the G Class cats - it happened once and it seems that it will not happen again. Look at its successor, the Doha race - such a flop that it didn't even pay the prizemoney. Many of the G Class are mouldering. One is apparently being converted to a motorboat, I hear. This is NOT a success story that can match the 600 or so boats that compete in the Fastnet, Bermuda and Hobart combined.

You say that allowing the fastest boats in the planet into the Fastnet and Hobart "would certainly turn them into major events" but there is simply no evidence for that belief. The continued record of poor entries for the events that allow such boats is proof that they do not encourage participation.

Surely if the Open concept (ie no limit on size or speed, classes based on length) was such a great one, such races would be popular. They are not. Therefore it must be an unsuccessful concept.

The singlehanded transat and Route de Rhum started off with no length limit and just length classes. Both found that an overall limit was necessary. Neither is a massive success in terms of entry numbers. These races are held near the world's biggest sponsorship markets which gives them a major advantage. The Hobart is not.

Since the races that have followed the "no limit, length classes only" format have not thrived, why do want to impose such a concept on races that attract many more entrants much more often?

Yes, yacht races are not as popular as F1 in terms of spectators. You can't expect them to be - F1 is supported by one of the world's biggest industries, the motor industry. Most people in the western world drive. Only a few sail. Yet (as far as I can find out) motor racing is NOT more popular in participation terms than sailing, so why does it make a good model?

About "When I was talking about international races I mean races that the best oceanracers worldwide could not miss." Most of the ISAF Sailors of The Year who do ocean races, have competed in the Hobart (and Fastnet or Bermuda). Few of the ISAF Sailors of the Year compete in the big Open style races. The current ISAF sailor of the year was skippering in the Hobart this year. It seems that the Fastnet/Hobart/Bermuda style is actually much MORE successful in attracting the best oceanracers worldwide.

You say "I would like to see is an open rule with a limitation on draft and with classes based on length" but I say again, most of the fast medium-sized boats are quite different from the sort of boat designed for a length class. Look at Merlin - she does well under IRC because while she is fairly fast, she also rates fairly low because she gets a rating advantage from having an interior and a comparatively small sail area. She would not be competitive on a pure speed-for-length basis because her small sail area and accomodation slow her down, yet she is a lovely boat that does very well under IRC. She is the sort of boat that is competitive under IRC but not as competitive under speed-for-length. She is the sort of boat that your concept would throw on the scrapheap. Same with Secret Mens Business, Yendys, Wot Yot, Challenge, and most of the other top small boats. Not one of these is the fastest boat for its length that could be devised, yet as you say they still go fairly fast. Why throw them all away for a concept that has been proven, time and time again, to be less successful?

Let's look at the top medium-sized boats on line honours; the owners of the top two started racing on Beneteaus and had enough success to encourage them to move to a custom raceboat. The owner of the third started with a Swan, which was successful enough to encourage him to buy a custom raceboat. The owner of the third started with an old racer, which thanks to age allowance was successful enough to encourage him to get a custom raceboat. The owner of the fifth (Olympic gold medallist) has had custom raceboats but prefers to own cruiser-racers that can be competitive because they get a reduced rating because of the extra weight of the furniture. The owner of the sixth started with an old racer that was competitive because of age allowance.

So did the owner of Wild Oats....the other maxi owners were dinghy sailors or crews at first.

So just about all of the top owners started on old boats or cruiser-racers. They were all encouraged by the fact that their cruiser/racers were competitive. If they hadn't been encouraged like that, I bet they may well have dropped out of the sport (and I may add I have spoken to most of them about such things).

Surely, if we are looking at the future of the sports, we should be following the ideas that work (ie the ones that get 70-200+ boats out each year or two) rather than the ones that do not (ie the ones that get 7-70 boats out every four years). I think some rethinking is necessary to get the Hobart fleets back up, but going to more expensive boats certainly isn't the right way as far as I can see.

 

The CNN trailer said "Boat sunk in the Sydney - Hobart race" yesterday but I never got to hear which one it was, was it Koomooloo?