Suitable Substitute for Sitka Spruce?

ya I've been round and round about this with a few folks so no worries your not alone in liking the stuff

your comment of being an engineer was helpful in that it tells me you are going by the numbers rather than hands on experience with the material

I have often found it to be the case that when someone actually works with a material they develop a whole new understanding of it than if they are simply in an office drawing away and noting there materials selections

without listing qualifications suffice it to say I've been hands on for many years and have recently taken a break from my hardwoods and millwright business

I can assure you the realities of working with a material as inconsistent as Dougy make it a poor choice for many applications, in a nut shell its framing lumber for a reason

forgive me if I list a few of them

pretty clear that the industry recognizes the problem and is struggling to find a way to use the wood anyway through good marketing strategy
not surprising that marketing never mentions it

whats really funny about this study is that what its really saying is that your more likely to cut a crooked piece of Dougy and have it dry straight than you are to cut a straight piece and have it remain so

these as well as other qualities make Dougy unsuitable as a finish material

also if you read the entire article from Mississippi state U you will find that out of something like 7 billion board feet they were hard pressed to find one that was straight

that pretty much does it for me on Dougy right there

when I build something I need it to stay were I put it



that thing had a glass tolerance of 1/16 OA, had to hold 75lb/ft snow load and was originally designed in Sitka spruce
I re-engineered it in laminated white oak and was able to meet the snow load requirement and keep the exact same dimensions
had I built it in Dougy my bet is that half the glass panels would have broken in the first freeze thaw cycle given the amount of warp and twist Dougy develops over even short periods of time and temp variations

its simply not a suitable material for anything I do nor would I be able to recommend it for anything but basic rough framing to any of my customers were they to inquire. I sell top quality domestic hardwoods custom cut direct from the mills, the waist on trying to stock Dougy given its poor linear or dimensional stability is cost prohibitive. If you go to any lumber yard or sawyer cutting the stuff you will find the majority of his cutting and stock waist is made up of Doug Fir

there is a reason for that

cheers
B

oh
most material I've come across list Dougy as moderately durable, although from what I've seen I'd say thats being generous
Ceder "durable"
spruce "durable"
white oak "durable"

I dont really like connected lines that much but this is an excerpt from there site concerning Doug Fir

Douglas-Fir Blunting of Tool Blades
Moderate to Severe

Douglas-Fir Botanical Name
Pseudotsuga menziesii

Douglas-Fir Carving
Average to somewhat difficult to carve

Douglas-Fir Clear Finish or Varnish
Fair

Douglas-Fir Color of Wood
Red Brown

Douglas-Fir Contrast between growth rings
Uneven

Douglas-Fir Crushing Strength
High

Douglas-Fir Decorative Figure
No

Douglas-Fir Density
Moderate

Douglas-Fir Drilling
Good

Douglas-Fir Fill before Finishing
Does not require a filler

Douglas-Fir Gluing
Good

Douglas-Fir Grain
Mostly Straight

Douglas-Fir Growth Ring Pattern Plainsawn
Well-defined or Conspicuous growth ring

Douglas-Fir Growth Ring Pattern Quartersawn
Noticeable or distinct growth ring stripe, ribbon or flake pattern

Douglas-Fir Hand Tooling
Average

Douglas-Fir Hardness
Average

Douglas-Fir Hardwood or Softwood
Softwood

Douglas-Fir Harmful Properties
May cause dermatological problems or skin irritation

Douglas-Fir Interlocked Grain
No

Douglas-Fir Kiln-dried Shrinkage
Moderate

Douglas-Fir Machine Tools
Average


goes on forever but it eventually gets to durability which it lists as moderately durable

yes its more rot resistive than most other framing lumber but as far as cherry walnut white or even red oak are concerned its in a long shot last place nor does it stack up well against ceder or spruce.

for trusses or headers its fine, no one cares if it twists a little or bows much, up under the roof, but for a hull or masts on a vessel I'm staking my life on its simply not a suitable alternative either based on price or performance.

as a mast material its heavy and prone to break with little warning ( although I must admit its been a while since I've been on the water ) Spruce will moan and groan at you and look like its about the snap long before it does, I kinda like that the wood will talk to me a little before it does anything rash.

my two cents
hope I did not offend anyone or come off to strongly
its just that I've worked with the stuff hand on for a very long time

B

you would be better of lb for lb using old growth poplar

 

Above is a guy working inside the upside down 154' ketch Scheherazade......almost every piece of wood in sight is Douglas Fir....the laminated beds over his head are generator beds.....not many warped boards there....YMMV....

 

did I mention that not everyone agrees with me on this one

nice pict Tad got any more cause that is one interesting looking build

B

 

I sure hope they allready have it figured out how to turn that boat over.

 

Boston seems to have an almost visceral animosity towards Douglas fir, for some reason. Maybe a DF tree fell in a windstorm, and scared his mom while she was carrying him?

More likely, he's seen bottom-grade, sopping-wet, green DF 2 x 4's poorly piled at construction sites, twisting into pretzels in the sun.

But in reality, dimensional stability is one of the reasons Douglas fir is so commonly used for doors.

Like anything else, you have to use the good stuff instead of the junk. I did a lot of remodeling of older homes in the Los Angeles area. I can tell you the old-growth DF lumber they were framed with was in perfect condition after 80 or 90 years, and so hard I couldn't get a nail into it without pre-drilling.

 

There is a chunk of her hull skin sitting on my desk.....Total thickness is 3.5" in 7 layers. First six layers are wood, inner layer on the left (tongue & groove vee-jointed) 13/16's Doug Fir at zero degrees to centerline. A lot of the inside of the hull is varnished after epoxy sealing. Middle four layers are 7/16's western red cedar 45 +/- degrees, all vacuum bagged and plastic nailed (one visible holding 3rd diag). Sixth layer of planking is 13/16'ths Doug Fir at zero, and outer layer is heavy glass, about 32oz biaxial I think. All bonded and sealed with WEST system epoxy.

Here's the sheathing crew....



Launch day....foggy Maine



And sailing

 

No Troy I dont think my mom got clobbered with a tree but it was pretty darn funny, by the way, Douglas Fir warped doors are a dime a dozen around these parts
Dougy is never sold green around here but comes as framing lumber or as special order beams typically with lots of knots and sapwood. But you can order the VG stuff if you want it, course its always got some kind of twist or bow to it and it costs as much or more than descent wood. Not sure what you guys are talking about when you say its light ( 35lb cu/ft is not all that light ) Only thing I've bumped into heavier is green white oak which when dry comes down to about 42lb cu/ft or something like that, depends on the moisture content.

its used and its cheap cause its so plentiful not cause of any tremendous quality advantages over other comparable woods

you could rest assured on any bunk of Dougy when you break the banding every piece on the outside will have some significant linear or dimensional deformation, bow cup warp, something. The waist off a bunk of that stuff right off the train is incredible. Kiln dried or air dried seems to make no difference.

if you get some customers come in and start picking through the pile they will reject these pieces as well as many others, by the time all is said and done on a bunk of Douglas there is about 50% waste, at the sawyer there is another huge pile of waste off the saw and another out of the kiln. Anyone who has actually payed attention to the wastage off given species of lumber will confirm this issue about Dougy.

yup
I've worked a lot of wood and hands down Dougy is my least favorite

ok kids my bad
I got things going on a tangent for which I apologize
soooooo
what is a suitable wood for masts and spars other than Sitka

over on the wooden boat forum I started a real ruckus when I mentioned poplar, one guy had a near psychotic reaction, yes it has questionable rot resistance but if epoxy impregnated that shouldn't make much difference. One builder used the stuff exclusively and many of his boats are still doing just fine today. Seemed opinions over there ran about 30% in favor and about 70% not. You could blend in something like white oak for the mast base and go poplar above the deck. The stuff has great strength to weight ratio and tremendous bending strength. Mater of fact its so tough they use it to this day in some snow board cores. My thinking is the resistance to using the stuff was largely based on tradition. Which I can kinda understand given the kind of folks they have over there.

just a thought, I've never tried poplar before for a mast, long ago out on the cape we always had some spruce laying around

cheers
B

ps
nice pictures Tad

 

What's not mentioned here is how the timber is produced. If it's form naturally grown forest or planted and fertilized etc. When it's harvested, hows it sawn and dried etc.. There's a lot of ways destroy forest and IMO modern timber industry is quite effective in turning perfecty good timber in a splintered rubbish...

 

This thread is getting a bit old now so I apologise for this late posting. If it is available via your local merchants, try to get Paulownia - sometimes known as Kiri (Not Kauri). This is originally a Chinese species now grown in Australia and New Zealand. It is about two-thirds the weight of WRC - more like Balsa, is rot resistant and about half the price of WRC. It is now used extensively as a cabinet timber because it stains and finishes so well.

In the past I have used Japanese Spruce and Paulownia is comparable in just about all respects. It is far better than Douglas Fir in terms of stability, rot resistance and compatibility with epoxy. It is a joy to work, as long as the tools are kept sharp. I have nearly completed the build of a 6.2 metre trimaran using Paulownia and am very pleased with the choice.

Hope this helps

Alan

 

Harvest is an important issue as is species harvested, what and where it is used, so on. Its all important most specially new or old growth sapwood or heart.

and thanks for your take on Doug fir
now prepare to have your head bitten off by some of our more staunch defenders of the stuff
why I'm not sure but some folks get attached to something and have a hell of a time hearing a dissenting opinion

cheers
B

and best of luck with your new boat

 

Interesting to hear your take/experience with DF Boston, thanks.

I pine for the stuff. You see a lot of old growth around hear in structures (like my 1954 house) but the "new" stuff gets exported! Reasuring to hear it's no joy to work with.

Poor mans teak - red cedar - is one of my favorites but yellow cedar takes the cake for me. I built 14 windows, two Dutch doors and a hatch out of it with G2 epoxy and S1 epoxy spray finish coated with Marine Gloss Cetol, beautiful.

I know a few guys around here with yellow cedar masts.

-Tom

 

ya its kinda interesting that the boat building squad seems to generally like the stuff but the fine woodworking folks hate it with a passion. Dougy does seem to have its following but only in certain circles. Red cedar is great stuff as is yellow. I also build windows and doors as well as anything else that I can make a buck off of, and although I seldom use cedar for windows and doors I have used it were weight was an issue and its great stuff.

I tend to use alkali based stains and/or tong oil

no sanding and all you need to do is wash it and slather on more oil
best if the temp is say >70° so you get a nice glossy finish over good penetration

cheers
B

 

Any differences between the different species in the family? At least Tomentosa, Koreana, Fargesii, Fortunei, and Kawakamii exists with Wikipedia suggesting Tomentosa and Koreana tolerating colder climates better.

 

Boston has an irrational thing about Douglas fir, Petros. Apparently he believes the low-grade, plantation-grown stuff that's delivered to tract home projects so wet it still has birds singing in it, then gets left baking and twisting in the sun until it turns into pretzels, is the norm.

As a general contractor, I've done everything from framing houses with Douglas fir to making cabinet doors out of it. Properly seasoned, it's a very stable wood.

 

I've worked with all grades of DF for well over 25 years doing everything from framing to fine cabinetry and furniture, I have never found DF to be suitable for much other than rough framing and at that it is marginal because of its instabilities. Thats not irrational, thats experience and lots of it.

Most Dougy is not plantation grown by the way, its stripped from the western landscape in a process called clear cutting that pretty much leaves the place a wasteland. sure they replant "some" but not much.

My issues with the stuff stem from the fact that there is a superior material for every task
might as well use them instead

as I said at the top of the page you can buy twisted and warped doors all day long around here and 90% of them are out of Dougy. I swear Denver must be some kind of dumping ground for screwed up DF doors.

anyway best to all

cheers
B