Suitability of modern cruiser racers to extended blue water cruising?

Man overboard I think you are completely out of the purpose of this thread.

What Sam asks is if a modern well built production 43/45 cruiser-racer has any problem in crossing oceans (he gives examples of the boats he is thinking about) and he asks about the stability of those boats on offshore passages.

This thread is not about the” ideal” passagemaker.

Anyway, the “Ideal” passagemaker differs with the priorities of each sailor. Again, maintaining that car analogy, some like to travel in sports-cars, others in sedans, others in trucks and I believe that if those were available, some would prefer Tanks .

This thread is about cruiser-racers and very fast boats and their capacity to cross oceans.



KWB (what a name)

Nice boat!

 

Had a busy week and when returning to the thread it seems that I am not alone with these questions.

You pick up virtually any yachting magazine, they are full of cruiser/racers - these are the boats that they are selling us. And as far as the reference to cars...I guess it is the equivalent of BMW M5 or Audi RS4 that I am after. Comfortable enough to transport the family but can turn into a hooligan if need to be

Lansart 47 was an interesting find for me. Without a doubt, very fast and still seems to be designed for easy handling by a small crew...But why there is virtually no information about this yacht on the web (apart from their own web site)? The only one (1) picture I found of a finished product was on their own French language web site.

I wonder how many they have actually built? Are the folks at Lansart too busy building yachts to update their web site with some fresh photos?

Did you Vega say that you know the price range of this yacht? Interesting.

 

Sam, why haven't look at the new ELAN 45 :?:

 

Nice! I always liked Elans, but had missed this new one - Elan 450. Choices, choices...luckily we are not in a big hurry.

 

I can check it out later, but I believe the price was something like 500 000 euros and that for a 46 aluminium boat with a movable bulbed keel (hydraulics) and a high quality rigging is not expensive.

I believe there is only the prototype. I have been inside it (this year) and the boat was almost finished. I have not any notice of test sails. The boat raised a lot of interest among French sailing magazines, so I believe that we will have notices when that happens.

The boat seemed very well built and very strong, the keel system was substantial, but the interior could be of better quality (but we are talking of a prototype). There’s a word that comes to my mind to describe it: Powerful and believe me, you can feel it when you are on the cockpit.

Talk to them to have fresh news.

There is another aluminium boat that has some similarities with this one (except for the moving keel). It shares the same concept, I mean, an offshore long range cruiser based on the Open60 racers. That’s the Cigale 14, a boat that is made by Alubat, the same company that builds the OVNIS.

If you want to do some IRC or IMS racing forget these boats, because they are not made to conform to a set of rules (like He cruiser-racers). If you just want to have fun and have a safe and faster machine that is thought for high speed, extended cruising and far away passages, then you should take a long look at these boats.

If you want a more conventional boat that fits in your budget, I would not discard the Luffe 48. I have been in the shipyard and I have only seen good things (they are craftsman and work on only four or five boats at the same time). This boat is very fast (even in IMS racing), beautiful and can come with a furling boom and an auto-tacking headsail (image). That set up makes it very easy to handle, even solo .

 

We're getting there

I saw these two (Cigale, Luffe) under the other thread you pointed out and liked them both. Cigale's interior layout is quite "unorthodox", I (along with perhaps the main interior decision maker - my wife) should really see it in real life.

I saw a smaller Luffe in Hanseboot some years ago and got a very positive impression. The yard's quality/spirit reminds me of some smaller Finnish builders like Finngulf and Maestro. Btw. the former has an interesting new 43 footer out - http://www.fg43.com/

 

Point taken, allow me to reiterate more concisely; ...I don't believe the question is being answered.

I will continue to follow the thread with interest.

 

Man overboard, forgive me if I have been a little harsh in that reply, but I was afraid this thread ended up like that one about seaworthiness.

Certainly you are right in wanting to hear (on this thread) really experienced people about the suitability of production cruiser-racers for ocean passages or even for extended cruising.

But as the Seaworthiness thread made clear, the tastes of different sailors about the boat they prefer for those passages or even about the kind of sea motion they prefer, varies wildly.

This thread is about “Suitability of modern cruiser racers to extended blue water cruising” so it makes sense to hear the opinions of sailors that prefer this kind of boat and have a big experience in sailing these boats offshore. But it makes no sense in hearing the opinion of other sailors that prefer other kind of boats and other kind of sea motion or prefer more space and comfort instead of fun and speed while sailing.

There is no right or wrong here, only different concepts, different people, and different tastes.

For the ones that have some doubts about the, “Suitability of modern cruiser racers to extended blue water cruising” I have made a quick internet search and see what some very experienced sailors (all have circumnavigated) say about their light and fast boats :

For example, Liza and Andy Copland say about their First 38 (70 000 miles):

“After several voyages, including a circumnavigation, it has proven to be the perfect
combination of seakindliness, seaworthiness, performance and fun, while
providing a comfortable home at anchor.”

http://www.nealalexander.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/ben38.pdf

Ivo Orlic says about his 46.3 Grand Soleil, after having navigated extensively, including a circumnavigation:

“She is a modern performance cruiser built to the highest European standards ... as a safe and quick passage maker ... Grand Soleil 46.3 is an elegant, fast cruising yacht with excellent characteristics such as sea kindliness, safety, comfort, superior internal volume, layout and sailing performance. She is easy to handle by shorthand crew and has the capability to impress on the racing circuit as well. The classic lines, which are typical of the Grand Soleil & Swan, are destined to remain beautiful forever.
Although FIU just completed circumnavigation she is well maintained and is now ready to go again”.

http://www.fiu-sailing-adventure.com/fiu.htm

Dick and Lesley, after having experienced the recent Tsunami (without losses) and after having circumnavigated (51000 miles) say about their J46:

“After over 17,500 miles of cruising (by Sept. 2003), we love the boat! It is an excellent size for two people to cruise on for extended periods, and makes excellent passages where we typically have four aboard. We like her easily-driven hull, which allows us to shorten sail early to be in control and yet not lose significant speed. She has proven to be a good sea boat, and had turned in several days in excess of 200 nm.

..... UPDATE January 2007: After almost 51,000 miles on ARAGORN, we still love our boat! “

Jeanne Pockel, and her husband Peter left Boston to cruise "for a couple of years" aboard their Jeanneau Sun Fizz (40ft). Fifteen years later they are still cruising and circumnavigating.They say about their boat:

“We cruised for more than 16 years on a Jeanneau Sun Fizz, which in 1981 was a "modern Racer-Cruiser." Light to moderate displacement, relatively deep fin keel. She was quick, went to weather well provided one reefed early, and was very roomy and had tons of efficient and easily accessible storage space. We went through a lot of heavy seas and bad weather, rode out (at anchor) several hurricanes and cyclones, including one that came through a place where hurricanes don't go. Hah!

(On) our quick trip from American Samoa to Niuatoptapu, Tonga. Ours was the lightest boat in the group that went there, and we did it about five hours faster than any of the other boats. That is one of the big differences between heavy full-keeler and a lighter, quicker, better pointing fin keeler.

Some of the people we've met on those heavy "cruiser friendly" boats suffered blue water passages a lot worse than we did. There was never a passage where I couldn't cook a hot meal or brew coffee every day.

Our Sun Fizz is much cheaper to buy than your friend's budget. He couldn't spend that much on one even if he did a complete refit with all new standing rigging. However, it is a different boat to sail than a heavy boat, and your friend needs to sail some of these boats to see what he will be comfortable with. “

http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3270&pid=5228&mode=threaded&start=

http://www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon.asp

Anne Brevig and Martin Vennesland sailed their 40ft GibSea for 9 years, circumnavigating and travelling 56 000 nautical miles.They say about their boat:

“NOR SIGLAR has now completed her circumnavigation and returned to Norway where she'll serve as our floating summer home and cruiser for several years to come. During her nine years at sea, she logged 56,000 nautical miles (abt. two times around the world), visiting 53 countries and 29 island colonies on the way. In this article, we will tell you a little about NOR SIGLAR, why we chose her as our home for 15 years and our transport around the world for nine. We will illustrate what was done to make her, in our opinion, a suitable and safe offshore cruiser.

In contrast to the traditional full keeled, heavy displacement designs, we thought a lighter displacement, high performance cruiser-racer would give us superior sailing ability, higher speed and greater comfort. The size would be easy for a middle-aged couple to handle, while providing ample interior space and stowage, and still be large enough for a sea kindly motion.

With a few exceptions, we have been very satisfied with NOR SIGLAR. Sailing-wise she has performed well in all conditions, which we have encountered. The light displacement, high ratio main and fin keel make her very fast in light winds. She also sails very well high into the wind, which we have found to be extremely important. ...
Another positive feature with the Gib'Sea is that when the sails are properly set, the boat is well balanced with no weather helm. This is evident from the fact that rudder, shaft and steering mechanisms are still the originals after 56,000 nautical miles. Further, the boat must be well built since there is no sign of any hull or interior bulkhead movements or leaks anywhere. All doors and cupboards are still totally in place, no signs of movements or warping. After hitting a reef in Indonesia at 4 knots and having survived considerable abuse from the towing off and rescuing operation, there are no signs of the keel separating from the hull, nor damage to rig, mast or rudder.
....
Of all the original sails, we have only had to replace the main.

What would we have done differently?

Not much, really. We probably should have had a tricolour mast headlight. The radar could have had a shorter range. ...

There has always been a lot of writing about what makes a perfect offshore cruiser. In conclusion, we can only confirm that there is no such thing. No boat is perfect. There always seems to be a balancing act, a compromise situation involved and, of course, for most of us, a budget to consider. Therefore, one sees all kinds of boats out there. And when it comes right down to it, all kinds of crafts do manage on the high seas, something, which cannot be said for their crew. “

http://www.norsiglar.com/english/spesificationf.html

Pierre and Geneviève Déliac, a French retired couple, sailed around the world for 4 years (1989-93) logging in more than 30000 miles on their 35ft production boat. They stopped for two years, got bored and sailed again, this time on a new boat, bound for the Pacific Ocean.
They say about their new boat (a centerboarder):

“Our new floating palace is a Feeling 416DI built in Les Sables, France by the Kirié shipyards (the same which built our previous boat L’Aventure). With her 41 feet, she is much more comfortable than our previous 35 foot boat. Her retractable lee-board gives us a very low draught (about 30 inches) and thus will give us access to the most wonderful creeks of the Pacific. “

And some more examples of production cruiser-racers that circumnavigated and traveled extensively:

A 1999 44 Finngulf : “Twice around the world already! Recently completed second circumnavigation and looking great. Fast and sleek sea hardy yacht”.

http://yachtbroker.escapeartist.com/boats/action/view/boat/958/index.html

A 1993 Jeanneau Sunfast: “The CHRISTIANNE, one of the faster, more comfortable, safe and most looked at boat which has ever circled the earth is for sale. Why do I want to sell? I really don't want to but Elizabeth says enough long distance cruising! I don't see why she should say this with only a dozen trips to Bermuda, lots of trips up and down the East Coast, several to Puerto Rico and the Bahamas, three Trans-Atlantics and a complete circumnavigation... I have sailed it solo on several ocean passages.
... She was purchased new for the purpose of long distance cruising in a fast, safe manner. Her speed allowed me to sail her in a comfortable, conservative style and still make better speed than most other boats. She can easily be sailed by two people and I have single handed on many ocean passages. Several 240 mile days have been recorded."
http://www.runwalkjog.com/Boats/southcarolina/93JeanneauSunFast607.htm

And finally but not least, what can we say of a 34ft, 20-year-old boat (Jeanneau) that circumnavigated non-stop, without any significant problems? About the sailor, 52 year old Alain Maignan, I would say that he is a good sailor with big balls, but what about that old production cruiser-racer?

http://jeanneau.tripod.com/gallery5/id477.htm

http://www.beneteau-group.com/$gp/detailActualitesMarques.do?langue=en&id=343

Believe me BillyBay, all these Guys have been “truly offshore in gale conditions or worse”.

 

Wow! Excellent post.

 

i looked and I found, that, most production boats have two MAJOR shortcoming for extended passages
Fuel cap or the lack of it
Water cap or the lack of it
The latter can be solved by going the desalinator route, the other is not so easy
There fore you need either good solar panals and or a towed water generator
All yachts in Eu now must have A cat for offshore, and this means stability curve , much safer than old fashioned boats in the higher lats, or in gale and up conditions
One of my main concerns is the height of the cockpit sill, which needs to be at least 300mm off the sole
It can get very very rough out there, and that sea just wants to get inside that boat

 

You have been given a lot of info and opinions already, here’s my cents worth.

I think the realities of living aboard for extended periods are generally not met that well with the cruiser/racer types. They sacrifice too much of the comfortable cruiser to give the responsive racer performance. If you want cruising performance you'd be better looking for a performance cruiser designed specifically for that task by a designer who is aware of the nuances therein. Even then buy with caution.

Many performance boats lack attributes that a cruiser will find attractive. For example as Lazyjack says tankage can be insufficient for long term cruising as can storage space. Cockpits need to be dry and secure, topsides should have adequate freeboard. You need to store and mount a lot of gear that you probably never counted on. Lightweight boats don't take kindly to the extra load it can severely affect both their stability and performance. Stability is not just AVS but also the power of the vessel to carry sail and its coefficients tend to get skewed and it stops being a performance boat unless you are very strict on this. This is not so significant for larger vessels as they absorb the gear with more tolerance.

Look at your own needs carefully if you are living aboard then the interior is very important; consider privacy and the needs of all aboard, also women tend to have different weights on boat attributes to their men folk.

WRT keels Consider collisions at sea and groundings and how the keel type will respond, many of the strut-bulb keels will require expensive repair after a collision; collisions with debris and whales are a common enough occurrence in all oceans. A high proportion of small boats sunk at sea are from collisions with poorly visible objects floating low in the water, interestingly the other significant vessel loss is from failure of ground tackle. A strong reliable keel should have a relatively long root, not collect ropes and weed and be robust enough for several severe grounding without damage. Centre boarders often suit the cruiser very well and can have very good attributes if well designed.

However I’m sure you realize that everything is a compromise in yacht design !
When assessing a vessel you may want to consider the ratios Particulalrly:
SAD and related righting moment (look up Dellenbaugh angle) does it sail on its ear upwind ?
“Comfort factor” important both at sea and at anchor.
AVS …. the higher the better, also if on the off-chance the vessel was inverted the AVS is a good indicator of the time to recover.
Another good figure is the transverse Metacentric height which will give an indication of roll period and stiffness.

Unfortunately it is doubtful that you will get sufficient honest information from most performance designers particularly for the “Loaded cruising condition” of their vessels.

 

Thanks Sam

I am confused

You say that “she's performing surprisingly well”.

If you had expected a poor performance why the hell whoud you have bought that boat?

That boat is designed by Rob Humphreys, a very good architect with a reputation of making safe boats, it is built by a reputable shipyard, has a good stability curve and shows an impressive speed on the Polar projection so….Why are you surprised?
Furthermore the boat has been tested by all major sailing magazines and all were unanimous on the positive to very positive evaluation of the boat.

I would say that the only thing that can be controversial is the design. Some will love it, others will hate it.

About the Category A, I am afraid that means little. Have you noticed that the Elan 31 is also a category A boat?

Your boat has the potential to make passages but it comes not really prepared for that. If you want to give that use to the boat you have to make some alterations, nothing very expensive or complicated, but very important in what regards safety. I am sure that there will be a guy, on the Elan staff that can tell you all about it.

 

Firstly,the amount of feedback and comments has already exceed my expectations many times over. I would like to thank you all for your contributions.

I have read quite a few books about off-shore cruising and many of the latest arguments are familiar views from very experienced cruisers. Originally I partly wanted to question this - perhaps a more traditional - view and see what kind of compromises I would be facing with a modern cruiser/racer.

And there indeed are many compromises. E.g. many of the boats that can handle a full on collision with a floating submerged container aren't necessarily very exciting to sail. But point taken, and I have started to be more interested in aluminum as a building material.

Vega also asked me if I'd like to race my boat. Well, I have been to races as well and found it to be exciting yes, but first and foremost educating. Racing is still not my big passion (well, at least not yet!). I have thus concluded that if I have to make a compromise by buying a boat I cannot race, it will not be the end of the world. But pretty fast, agile and fun it has to be - otherwise I might as well stay on land! Oh, and I confess that it should have the looks too

As far as boat's capability of handling the extra load when cruising - I buy this argument as well. However, I would presume that this is more of an issue with smaller 36-40ft boats than e.g. 45-47 footers. One would probably carry more absolute (kg) amount of extra cargo in a bigger boat, but I would argue that in terms of % of displacement it should be less of a problem in larger boat (assuming the same smallish crew).

The building techniques have developed and some of the new boats boast large amounts of high tech materials like carbon. Look at e.g. Dehler 44 (10.3t) vs. Dehler 44SQ (9.7t). This is - to my knowledge - exactly the same design, but SQ is built of epoxy resin & foam cel core whereas the standard version from vinylester resin and balsa core. SQ also sports carbon rigging etc. So, I am not sure if you can state that the SQ can carry 0.6t more cruising gear...but probably it does buy you some more leeway.

Summing up: it is a very complex equation and much depends on the type of sailing we would end up doing and also the duration/length of our trip. We have discussed this a lot with my wife and it might well be that I end up buying a second hand boat for a couple of seasons. After some a bit longer off-shore journeys we should learn more about what works for us.

 

Nice post and wise decision.

Some precision about racing:

When I have said that the Cigale (aluminium) was not a good option for racing I was meaning handicap racing.

The Cigale 16 has won its class on the last "Route du Rhum" and her class were all production boats with less than 16m

The Route du Rhum is probably the most important of all Transat races and is a Solo race.

That boat was for sale. It is a Standard and almost new boat with first quality sails.

 

May I suggest you a reading of the STIX thread at: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13569
Also at the Seaworthiness thread (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14860) you may find some useful opinions.

I'll try to work out some numbers and ratios for those boats as soon as I find a bit of time, and post them here for you.

About waves height and period for fetch and depth limited conditions, here a nice calculator: http://woodshole.er.usgs.gov/staffpages/csherwood/sedx_equations/RunSPMWave.html

Vega,
I've done a quick checking using it:

Wind speed: 15 m/s (Force 7)
Constant depth: 20 m
Fetch (marine miles)-Wave height (m):

1 - 0.43
2 - 0.61
3 - 0.74
4 - 0.85
5 - 0.95

If we asume depth as 5 m (The Ijselmeer, i.e.)

1 - 0.42
2 - 0.57
3 - 0.68
4 - 0.75
5 - 0.82

Now, if we asume a varying depth from 10 to 50 m:

1 - 0.43
2 - 0.61
3 - 0.75
4 - 0.86
5 - 0.97

Now, let's work 'closer to land', asuming constant depth of 5 m:

0.1 - 0.14
0.2 - 0.19
0.3 - 0.24
0.4 - 0.27
0.5 - 0.30


I don't see the correlation D/3 anywhere....Where did you take the D/3 info from?


Cheers.