speed around a course

MB,

I don't know. Do you mean #44.

Pericles

 

And what does that have to do with anything at all? The OP says :

"I suspect a lot of crap is published about cruiser racer multihull speed. Sure there fast on a reach but carry a lot of windage to windward and aren't that efficient sailing reaching angles down wind except in a blow."

So he is using ONE set of race results, from a race sailed by people who's abilities we have no idea about, in conditions we know nothing about, to make a generalisation about multihull speed. Add to that the fact that we haven't seen any reference to these results where we can actually verify that they even happened. PLUS we don't know IF the Schionnings really were "cruiser racers" (which would be the "Line Honours" or "Waterline" series at least)

A well sailed fast mono will beat a poorly sailed slow multi every time.

So what?

 

Your second last post appears to have changed since my first reading & reply.

That's the point anyway...

Multihull's speed is hyped beyond reality in many situations, that's the truth of it as far as the ordinary sailors experience goes. People buy these "Condo-Cats" and think they have a fast boat and in most situations they really don't.

 

MB,

"People buy these "Condo-Cats" and think they have a fast boat "

I personally wouldn't presume to judge what the owners of "Condo Cats" think about the speed of their vessels as I haven't met one yet. I think they're all in Oz However, as Gunboat have shown, it's possible to combine considerable performance with comfort, style and panache.

That Sports 8 you linked to is a fine vessel and I've requested the manufacturers to notify me of the UK dealer as I'd like to see it. BTW, what are your thoughts on my suggestion for a fair basis for comparison?

Regards,

Pericles

 

I have owned,raced on and against multihulls and my take is that in silly little w2 courses its tough going for the multihulls,however on point to point type races its a different story,in my experience,monohull racers dont actually like to sail fast so they avoid reaching legs like the plague even though its the fastest point of sail for most boats.Most of the production condomarans are not good performers largely because of overloading.A lot of the cruiser/racer cats down under are custom built from stock plans and are lighter and faster than the lagoons etc. If you want to check out how a schionning cat can perform if built with weight savings in mind,kept light and raced properly google the lindauer coastal classic in NZ and look at the results of a waterline 1320 named Mcmoggy for the last 7 years since launching. Also the course record for monohulls for the newport to ensenada race is held by an 86 ft canting keel boat,Pywacket set in 2003,most people dont realize that in 1983 a Macgregor 36,Kristine sailed the course 5 minutes faster to be second to finish by 8 minutes behind a 66ft racing cat,the mac is hardly a high tech boat,just well sailed and suitable conditions.
Steve.

 

Actually, most of them are in the US. There is a huge (mostly charter) market there for Lagoons etc - "condo-cats". In fact even the word "condominium" isn't regularly used here in Aus. IMHO, Australian multihull designers are among the world's best.

 

No doubt we have some good designers.

Most courses are set to test all points of sail. Its about achievable speed in all condition's and directions. I like a boat that will preform to windward, to many cruising boats (of all stripes) don't, yet ironically they are the ones most likely to find themselves with a dead engine on a lee shore. One trick ponies are suspect, I don't think that the mono hull "sled's", as they call them (pure downwind machines), are particularly worthy craft either. Getting a boat to windward fast is harder, making a reaching machine is much easier but getting a good all around preformer is the hardest trick.

Gunboats, yeah $$$$$$$$$$$$ ... its possible to do a lot of things. Gunboats are fine and no doubt will blaze a trail for times when Carbon is the cheap material of choice but for most of us right now they are fantasy land (I wish!). I read of a well built Atlantic giving a Gunboat a hard time for speed on a passage, I don't know how true the account was. LOL I can imagine that in a gunboat you'd back off at sea, flying a hull in a "cruising" boat in a decent swell would be enough to put the wind up most.

I like to see good design without going to cost extremes to achieve a decent sailing boat. The over whelming tendency seems to be to cram to much into short a design thus destroying the inherent advantages that multis should by rights have but most often don't. Take our leading production multi (I guess in numbers) the Seawind 1000 @ 4600kg eeek! but very popular... vs the not so popular Oram's 44c at 5200kg (+600kg and +14'). Not a fair comparison? I dunno, Bob's boats are cheaper to build because they have less stuffed into them but where you end up on cost is another thing, prolly not to far from a new SW1000 but I dunno, just guessing. Anyway I know which one I would like to sail... but hey its about selling "bedrooms and bathrooms" not sailing the thing That's why we probably will not see to much in the way of lean production boats.

I prolly should have chosen the 39' Mango @ 4200 kg but I like the 44c better... purely subjective choice. Anyway it illustrates the point..

 

Ah well Alan! I stand corrected.

"IMHO, Australian multihull designers are among the world's best."

Duck!! INCOMING!

Actually, the title of "Best of the best" is a moving feast. For me, personally, as everyone probably knows it's Morrelli & Melvin, by a short head, at present, for now, unless someone else knows differently??

http://www.deltayachtsbrokerage.com/dyeng/gunboat-en.html

But, I am prepared to be seduced by the offers of these other designers who are not placed here in order of rank, but only as I can find them.

http://www.pedigreecats.com/js/js52home.htm

http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

http://www.africancats.com/

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/faq.html#anchor150609

http://www.multihulldesigns.com/

I know I have left others out, but have you seen the time here. I am due in bed.

Goodnight sweet princes,
And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!

Pericles

 

Smaller Boats for Learning

Good points Meanz. Whether it be monos or multis, the small boats are where the finer points of sailing are learned.

 

Nothing like learning on something that chucks you in the water every time you make a mistake. It kinda underscores the point My old man was a little more hard line, he reckoned that it had to sink (well fill with water, lots of water) that way he reckoned you really learn not to stuff up. He used to rag me about my Moth cause it was "self bailing", I wonder what he would make of todays Moths. One of the little blighters from the local yacht club flys past me on a regular basis, what adds insult to injury is I can be doing 15 knots with spray flying everywhere and he is sitting 3' above the water... fast and dry. The other day he lapped me for a stir, sailed out in front crossed my bows then fell back and crossed my stern then blasted back through my lee... mutter... mutter... mutter

Hey thats a mono hull half my length ! Do foils count? LOL

 

MB,

That's the law of the Old West! No matter how quick you are, there's someone out there who's gonna be faster, partner!

Now git off yore hoss 'n' drink yore milk!

Pericles

 

Yeah, always something faster. LOL I want a Seacart! Anyway.... the little blighter does provide some entertainment, his stacks (wipeouts, crashes etc... ya know) are brilliant

 

MB,

You asked how to compare performance of monos and multis. One could use two simpe formulae:

Calculate first for both boats MRmono = L^0.5 * SA^0.333 / W^0.25 this is originally for monohulls.

Then calculate for both boats MRmulti = L^0.3 * SA^0.4 / W^0.3 this is for multis (simplified from texel rating).

In the formulae L is length waterline, SA is sail area and W is loaded weigth of vessel. Bigger MR equals faster boat. If both formulas indicate one boat faster, it quite sure is. For upwind use upwind sail area, for downwind use downwind sail area.

Terho

 

Thanks ! Lets plugin some info from some Schoening cats, a NS38 and an Adams 13 (if we can find it all) and see what the formula thinks.

One concern... this is ultimate speed potential, no? I mean there are quite a few mono's at the local yacht club that will sail away from me in light conditions but can't see which way I went in 20 knots

What exactly is it telling me if we get an each way bet from the numbers?

What I was originally driving at is what is the (loosely) fair basis for comparison. i.e should we really expect a 40' mono of a certain type to measure to a 40' cat of the same type (racer, crusier/racer etc). I suppose there are so many variables making a basic rule of thumb is impossible. Another factor is that the mono's talked about earlier in this thread are decades older designs than Mr Schoening's efforts.

 

Short of numbers for the mono's at the moment.

I wonder if his wine bottle has fallen of the table yet?