Small Tri's under 20', any mention of foils is banned..

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by waynemarlow, Jan 13, 2015.

  1. waynemarlow
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    waynemarlow Senior Member

    The thread on the under 20' Tris has become so distorted by the dominate foiling issue that it is now serving no real purpose other than the discussion of foils in small Tri's. Sadly to discuss the generality of modern small Tri's I would like to limit this thread to anything other than foils, there is a suitable thread for that.

    So to get the discussion going lets take the modern version of a 20' Tri such as the Pulse 600 or TC627. Built commercially at a price point which will attract enough buyers who do not have the time or simply have the coin to simply step into such a boat, do these type of boat have a bright future or are they being over hyped and the short length will not enable them to be used in anything other than inshore waters.

    Equally will the home builds such as the Strike 18 be perhaps the way foward, using donor boats such as the abundant F18's or Prindle 19's to build a relatively cheap 20ft Tri which can be used for day sailing.

    Do we need to have the complexity of fully folding boats or should we consider the more simple plug and sail Amas of the SeaRail 19.

    Lots of things to discuss but please can we keep this thread " foil " free.
     
  2. R.Finn
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    R.Finn Junior Member

    Are you thinking open boat or with cabin ish?
     
  3. warwick
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    warwick Senior Member

    and how long do you want to take preparing to go sailing is some thing else I feel has to be considered.
     
  4. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Possibly the first question is to ask. Who will sail the boats?

    The second is "what would they sail if not a 20ft trimaran?"

    Then "why" or "what for" do they race or cruise? burn round the bay or go somewhere?

    do they keep the boat at home or at a dock?

    How good are the sailors? Can they cope with a really fast boat?

    An aside - how many F16's race in the UK now, are the racing fleets up to the 200 mark that the Dart 18 had in its heyday?

    People used to say "The Dart is a slow boat, no boom no boards". But they forget the intent of the IYRU (at the time) was to promote a boat that anyone could sail, not just experts. So one that would be forgiving, as well as "fast enough"

    I would suggest that a not too extreme boat would do better in the market. You will remember the Firebird catamaran, too extreme for most people, I know of one that capsized 4 times. So insurance cover became impossible. Only a few people sailed a Firebird properly, one was Graham Goff, I sailed with him when we won the 1994 nationals. People are still wanting Striders because it is fast yet can be used for family cruising as well

    In the US the Stiletto 27 was popular, but many felt it was too big to take home after every sail. so the builders developed the stiletto 23, maybe akin to these 20ft trimarans as it had no cabin, just ice box storage.

    However it was too extreme for most and indeed in the first championships I believe nearly half the fleet capsized. I sailed one, it was indeed a very tricky boat to sail, a huge boomless rig, no way of reefing and a poorly thought out deck layout. That was basically the end of the company

    Boats are not just used on the water, they need to be kept somewhere. So a very wide boat has little appeal, no one is going to pay for a 40ft berth so they get something that is wide enough to take their 20ft wide boat. Also unappealing is one that cannot be rigged and launched/retrieved from a beach in under 1/2 hour.

    A pure racing boat has no resale value

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  5. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    My views
    Tris CAN be built extremely seaworthy, but that is NOT the direction most take which is speed. I make no judgement, but that is how it is. Mast heights/hull length are pushing safety limits.

    If the tri is commercially built a folding mechanism is well worth the cost, particularly if trailering is planned which would be the majority in this size. It really depends on the weight of course. A 20ft single hand tri based on a kayak has no need for folding but if the floats are a hundred pounds or more they are a liability loose.

    Using donor floats is a great way to home build a tri but it will not be optimized. Cats have static buoyancy needs that a tri does not and the tri has greater loads that the cat does not.
     
  6. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    four messages and no one mentioned foils (Oh ****) I just did

    RW
     
  7. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Obviously this is a design forum, so may not be the best place to promote ideas for the class. Maybe you should go to catsailor, YandY or one of the other sailors forums to see what they think.

    I made the same comment on the Yard boat and low cost race dinghy threads but no one has posted on YandY yet

    RW
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Foils

    As Richard says this is a design forum and attempting to restrict the design discussion in an artificial way because you cannot discuss relevant material is absurd and unfair to those who might be interested in under 20 trimarans. Banning discussion of foils is absolutely ridiculous in the 21st Century-you are making your mind up with preconceived false premises instead of trying to learn what is possible and how it can help create the nearly perfect small trimaran.
    UPDATE:1/15/15-This thread was started in a pathetic attempt to "ban" discussion of lifting foils on under 20 trimarans. Underscoring the hypocrisy evidenced by that edict, the thread starter ,wayne marlow, just disclosed on the original under 20 thread that on the next tri he builds he will use ama lifting foils!!! You just can't make this stuff up........

     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
  9. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    No Doug. Using that argument every post, whatever the subject would go in the same thread

    RW
     
  10. rcnesneg
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    Honestly, the strike 15 seems to be a pretty good boat. Here is one that has been souped up a little(crossbeams and sail rig) I don't know much about it, and hadn't even heard of it until about a week ago.

    [​IMG]

    Heres a little more inspiration for you all. (I love pretty pictures) :D

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    It is important that the OP can focus on his requested questions. You are equally free to create threads on yours. Some blogs have 'ignore user___' features. This site remains professional enough to get by without those but if I recall, you had the sys-op block some users from your threads/view.

    Your views are well known and represented as far as I can see. Let a thread exist without them if it so desires.
     
  12. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I am interested in this thread because for over 35 years I have been making a living designing/building and sailing catamarans.

    But right now I own three small day sailing trimarans and one power catamaran. No sailing catamarans at all

    I know why that is, but I would like to hear other people's views before I outline mine

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  13. mundt
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    mundt Junior Member

    tri has most upsides of cat and few downsides, especially when it comes to flipping over in the cold peepee
     
  14. rcnesneg
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    Trimarans have a lot more space in the center hull than a catamaran, comparable to that of a monohull of similar length. Cats tend to have no space unless you get either very large or put it on top like miss cindy. Trimarans are also often lighter. I would say they sail faster, but we're still working on that in smaller ones. ;)
    They have a certain atmosphere about them that is different than catamarans. They give off the feeling that you can take them out, cruise across the lake, fast, in acceptable comfort, through rain or shine, a lot like the big maxi trimarans do. They are the pinnacle of large sailboat performance at present. Ie: Around the world in 45 days...

    [​IMG]
     

  15. mundt
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    mundt Junior Member

    center hull of tri, if well designed, is not as roomy as mono and not as much volume as 2 cat hulls.
     
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