single skin vs. sandwich fiberglass

Ok so could it be a simplified process to manufacture our everyday run of the mill pleasure boats ?? i dont think so or at least not for a long long time . Not untill theres a real true demand anyway .
When i started asking about making boats lighter its the everyday boats i was refering to mainly but its the one offs and boats built to exstreme that we learn from .
Thats why we have the cars we have today because of things learned on the race tracks of the world . Technology seems not to filter down very quickly in the boating industries !!, most of the materials we have to work with came from other parts of the glassing industry .
I started working in glass in 1972 and very little has changed ,very little in all that time . Sure resins are differant ,they say they are better but that debatable some times . Glass is still glass possibly the biggest thing to happen is a partial switch from woven to stitched fabrics ,but woven is still as popular as it was in the begining of time !!.
When theres something to be made its poly resin and csm and woven roving and core Balsa most people reach for . Sure we have lots of foam cores and are still getting new ones coming on the market quite often but foam has a long way to go before it comes close to where it really should be . its takes a lot to match Balsa as a everyday reliable easy to use and has good durability in most situations . :idea::?:

 

red dwarf- hope you dont mind me challenging you on the above?...honeycomb -or rather PP honeycomb can be hand layed-infused, and doen pretty much the same way as any other core...what you are talking about is nomex which doesnt have a bonding scrim attached.
it is recommended that one uses vaccuum bagging. ...

 

For general use boats the only honeycomb option would be the infusion grade of Plascore. That core has a film which prohibits resin migrating into the cells. The problem is it is expensive so why not just use Corecell or Airex?

General use boats just are not a place where you see enough return for saving a little weight. With expensive cores you can save some weight but what is the saving of a few hundred pounds worth? I would rather spend a few thousand dollars on cool electronics not high tech core.

edit - we posted at the same time. Yes I know about Plascore but I don't even consider it in the same breath as Nomex. Regardless of what their sales people like to say it is not a good primary structure core, but fine for panels and such.

 

Tunnels--yes its simple- its justhoneycomb is not right for everyone. Mariners are a conventional lot--it takes many years for something to truly become accepted as a hull material mainly because of costs. not that honeycomb is any less cheaper--just the overall costs of a boat for most people make people really jittery about experimentation..so only a few people ever really break with tradition and this is why it takes years to finally have a material accepted- corecell--prime example--

-been around since the 80's but even now just starting to become accepted as a hull material.


go here to see quite a few boats with pp cored hulls..they seem to be floating and all...
http://nida-core.com/english/nidaapp_marine.php

 

I used standard pp with a bonding scrim--had no issues with resin consumption..about 1lb/per lb glass ratio. nida core and plascore are roughly the same as far as im concerned. ive never tried nomex...but a sheet of 1 inch pp plascore- under 60.00!! almost same as acx ply.
and the stiffness of 1" is unbelievable. compare that to core-cell..its just my preference anyway...if ever i build with it--ill use 3/4 inch pp honeycomb with a bonding scrim and no veil. but its just a preference...

edit: yea that was weird...!

 

QUOTE=tunnels;583687
Ok so could it be a simplified process to manufacture our everyday run of the mill pleasure boats ?? i dont think so or at least not for a long long time . Not untill theres a real true demand anyway . /QUOTE

Tunnels--yea-demand will come from results which takes a long time ...and many successful boats sadly which, aint gonna happen anytime soon.

im sorry if this seems like im hijacking this thread--ill try to keep it short for the benefit of others--

in my opinion--i make a radical departure from conventional thought.
Im a bit of an experimenter in that i will take calculated risks..even if failure occurs(hopefully i wont sink in the process.).


my philosophy using honeycomb is the complete reversal of the conventional thought on honeycomb- i.e. using lightweight light skin laminates, for racing hulls be they sail or power.
my diametrically opposed methods and ideology is-

honeycomb should NOT be used for any of those types of boats-too easy to hole...even high end cores. like core cell and other types of pvc foams etc. they handle blunt trauma but not concenytrated points.

(although they would be successful i am sure) but imho, core like honeycomb nidacore standard or plascore pp. is better suited for workboat or heavy displacementt cruisers even though that might seem counter intuitive-heres why:


1. the core costs per sheet allows a whole boat shell to be done using one inch core vs core cell 3/8th core 5 lb density at around the cost of good MDO ply.

its half the price of MDO and costs 1000.00 for my 500.00 sq ft hull compared to 3000.00 for core cell.- that makes the hull about somewhere in the 47 times greater stiffness range given equal laminates.

2.honeycomb is not friable. core cell may well be, under pounding stresses. but since my boats is a slow displcament cruiser there is less worry about that...


3. the core simply acts as a mold skin making contruction cheap and easy layed over a batten mold. this gives something for the frp layup to form over.easier and better than play or strip plank and more cost effective.and its not wasted and discarded.

this core/mold stays in the hull - the philosophy is that by using heavy laminates -usually three times more than on a sailboat,-makes the hull stiff strong, heavy for reasons of motion, and since weight is actually needed here to make the boat "stiff" its win win!

weight is advantageous in a seaway in the same way heavy steel slows the motion of the boat down. making a more comfortable ride.

weight here is what the builder wants. not lightness...and this makes for durability.

so by using the heavy laminates at around 3/8th thick triax on the outside and around 1/4 inch thick triax on the inside(4 layers and 3 layers respectively) makes for a strong tough abrasion resistant, almost bulletproof hull and having a weight advantage. for heavy displacement cruisers or work boats.

--so my ideology is reversed for whats normal..the core just acts as a mold skin which stays in the vessel...and happens to make the boat unbelievably stiff too!
a reversal of thinking...

core cell--well its too expensive -three times the price for less thickness and stiffness...its overkill...its a trade-off too:


-core cell needs less laminates for equal deflection strength..at the cost of abrasion resistance and impact resistance.. although it is remakable for deflection on impact and non pointed objects tend to "bounce off the hull--unless it is pointed and then no core will stop a pointed concentrated stress load..it get holes that way. regardless--even steel does this..i can almost hole a 1/8th steel hull with a welders hammer and repeated blows... so thats why--it can be successful.

all factores equal--in theory at least..time will tell for those few whom i admire who do experimenting.
taking one for the team if they fail.

 

wow half a book !!
Even in these time we should be building with better materials and better resins so we use less and get more Its going to have to happen and the sooner the designers and builders start working closer together to achieve these things the better But trailing along also is teaching and training staff properly . we need to have Fibreglass boat builders . they need to be trained in all the basic aspects of what they need to do and to be able to do . Resin companies and glass companies are sadly lagging behind with information about there products . Im not talikng about a dressed up traveller that hands out brouchures and smiles and gets in his car and goes im talking a proper class room and hands on workshop enviroment for the guys off the factory floor . Example one place i worked a while back had never seen Core matt !! Like it be on the market for i dont know how many years . even in places that use it have no idea of its properties how its made why its made the way it is and what is it really for!!! Same thing with cores and the use of glass is a complete mystery for some seasoned and surposedly experianced laminators . they have absolutly no idea what they are doing . i proved this by making some one layer samples and they all held and then when they turned them over there propertied changed and nor one person could understand why it was a totall mystery .
any way :idea::?:

 

We don't need educated "fiberglass boat builders", nor have we for a few generations. We need minions and lots of them. That's all it takes to build 'glass boats. The supervisory and support staff arrange their crews, to build to the plans and the minions do what they're told by them. This does mean a minimal amount of training, to insure procedures and techniques, for the specific tasks that the plans require are followed, but that's all. Materials cost what they do and there's not a lot of movement you can get out of them, but labor, well that's where you can save money. The easier and more simple you can make the laborer's jobs, the more you can save. This is why innovation remains in the custom builder's pocket, because they're the only group in the industry, not building to a market nitch or price point. You want America's Cup, you pay for it. You want a Mac 26, you pay for it and the build quality, with it's material selections bare this out.

Having experienced, well heeded and innovative work forces, within a plant is just counter productive. Everyone will have a better idea of how to do things and they'll insist on better wages too. The boats will be well built, but you'll never sell any because they cost too much.

Why would a 'glass layer, working on single skin, solid laminates need to know about core mat? Who cares about core mat if it's not in the laminate schedule they're working on. Resin formulators and 'glass products manufactures certainly are not laying down on product spec's delivery or promotion, but they do have enough sense to focus on those, that might need to take advantage of these products, which as surprising as it may seem, isn't the factory floor worker popping Clorox bottles out of molds. It's a bit like asking for full page ads in the Wall Street Journal, for cutting edge neurosurgery equipment. Please, they target the obvious markets, which again are the fabric hangers.

Engineers work with material choices, 'glass boat builders are fabric layers and don't need to know much more, if you expect the product to be competitive in the marketplace.

 

Par- reasonable post.
I hope im not one of those minions...
id like to think i know a bit about materials...one thing i wondered though--shouldnt the "glass layer" worker bee, know something about various materials?? knowledge is power after all..

steel workers or boat welders should know the properties of steel and different kinds of steel and how those materials form and can be worked? isnt this kind of the same thing?

 

this is going to stir up a storm

Oh my god another one !! what are you affraid of ?? are you scared laminators will take over the country and become a super power and put you out of work . so while they down keep them down where they belong!!
Sorry if it was not for the skills and know how handed around amongst the laminating crews at floor level there would be more boats falling apart and companies would be going broke from repairs and faulty products .
One of the biggest problems is laminating problems some times take a long while to surface , my favorite phrase is "the probelms you cover up today are the repairs for tomorrow"" ! mechanics are trained !! electricians go to school and get certificates to say what they can do ,wood workers have appentiships and spend x thousand hours to get there tickets , designer study and attend what ever . now tell me what does a laminater get !!! where is the piece of paper to say he is capable of a certin standard and level of work skills !!. laminaters are treated as the scum of the earth and mostly the lowest paid . The work they do and his skill are what make boats and what the company relies on for its five or ten year warranties !!!
Its time people in higher places recognised the need for Fibreglass boat builders with there own certificates and pieces of paper to hang on the wall .
What you are discribing is primitive thinking ,its dinosour behaveour . you waht to save money you need to get rid of people that donot comtribute to the work of building a boat , look at the structure of a company . how many people actually work and make things ?? unless you are producing some thing you should not be there , you are of no use , you are a leach manufacturing companies only need two maybe 3 people in the office to take messages and compile orders in an order they are to be made . managers accountants pretty office girls and sales people have no need for a office at all . a cell phone a i pad and a car and there is no need to even see them ever . The managers is just that he is there to manage his band of working supervisors .
AS a factory manager i always mad a point of spending time on the floor . my office was a equipment repair shop and store as well as a general meeting place foe leading hand to sit and talk to there crews to sort there next jobs and delegate staff for what ever jobs they were to do . i was working with crews and finding what was needed and making sure it was ther and ready before time . we never had lunch breaks and tea breaks at regular times was all glide time and it took a month before people were completely comfortable with the system . it was never abused and the work rate and attendance we up im leaps and bounds . quality was the responcability of each crew and if problem arose the people resoncable were the ones that put it right, I organised chemists and some of there staff to come and talk about gelcoats and resins and for there staff to come and work and see first hand how there products were used . We had tours periodicly to the factory to see how and what .
When each new boat was launched some of the laminators went on the test run and were even allowed to drive .
i organized the local fire department to come and give a demo on the use of the equipment we had of which 90% didnt work for various reasons
Some people volenteered to do st johns first aid courses .
We borrowed a video player and tv and ran boating videos at lunch times and dvds of boat building and all kinds of things , after 10 months we had a happy crew !! attaudes changed big time . i was the manager and i managed because thats what i was there for .I gave each person a flolder or technical data and product information so they knew all about what they were using , when a traveler arrived with somethig new we all listen to the sales mand speel and asked questions !! only problem was other departments were getting pissed off with there supervisors and there lazy attatude and why didn they do the same sort of thing for them wasnt long before i became a outsider so to speak .

 

My 25-plus years of observing Norwegian yards that were instrumental in advancing foam-cored composite structures and shipbuilding has resulted in an assessment quite at odds with yours.

Perhaps they are simply an exception.

 

I have found on quite a few occasions that the 'minions' in a production process who care to think through and around their tasks, added some really valuable input to the process, and often saved a lot of money when written processes, that resulted in silly situations, were ignored.

 

My point is the bums in any company are only bums because they are not pushy , they are not out going , they dont want to carry a soap box and yell look at me i am important . Quietly they go about there busness and absorb and store information .
During my early days as a laminator i could see very quickly the place i was working i was never going to learn much !,after 6 months and i got itchy feet so i moved to an industrial place ,after the first day i realised i was right i knew almost nothing at all . i was working with old guys that had been in glassing and done glassing since the animals vacated the ark .
3 months there was an absolute eye opener . Now i knew what i had to do to learn more so every 3 months i changed jobs and went to work for yet another boat company again learning from the exsperianced guys what ever i could .
In a couple of years and i have run round almost the lot so looked and found a job overseas !!.wow learning started all over again a whole differant way of looking at a job , after Tahiti and working with the natives making fishing boats i went to Australia and joined a bunch of guys in a industrial shop more learning and one older english guy there taught me heaps of short cuts and changed my whole way of looking at the differnat jobs and work we were doing . After a year then i went home back to nz and joined the biggest power boat shop in the country as glass shop manager . This for me was my taste of mass production of bigger boats like i have never seen before . They made a complete boat ,all the mouldings in 7 days ,wow i thought . I got the job and was scared the first couple of days but by the end of a week i had settled into the job ,i then started to see what was missing and what needed to be done and could be done better with just a little of my effort ,so little by little i gained the respect and confidance of everyone in the glass shop then little by little i asked the guys what and how we could change things to make life better for everyone . Once the ball started to roll and they felt important ideas flowed as they opened up .They all gained enthusiasum and a feeling of self worth . i worked with each and everyone of the guys to see what skills each person had and how good they were at there jobs . Then with the leading hands and the foreman we set about shifting people to where they were best suited and putting young person with them to learn and after a couple of months shifting people to do other jobs . The rotation of staff took the bordom out of work and everyones work knowledge grew as well
My theory is skilled staff are a asset to any company and its there skills and know how that makes the company what it is . Evey one had ideas of how to improve what they were doing and in a very short time the quality and the skill levels climbed . The foreman came to me one day and thanked me for all the progree id made but like i said to him all i did was be open a door , the guys them selves did the rest .
Production went up and we made a whole boat in 4 an 1/2 days not 7 !
staff levels dropped from 24 workers to 17 and instead of working 8 hours overtime a week it went down to 5 hours , but with higher wages the guys still took home the same or a little extra wages .i even had one of the guys wives come and shake my hand and thank me for changes in her husband out look on life . Treat people as a equal and if you are a manager manage and do what you are there for, change wont happen over night but little by little the work place changes .you earn there respect and you will get respect and loyalty 10 fold in return

Grumpy know it alls have things to hide and i hate grumpy people !! so whats your problem ??

 

Tunnel- what i like about your posts is that i am getting a vibe that your a very passionate about what you do--have you thought about redirecting that passion into your own company or on a project that will make boatbuilding systems better??...just a thought--Ill say this only once on this site--it is a ruling principle that i know to be true..thats is--all your prior learning is taking you somewhere--everything truly does happen for a reason--ill leave it there- think about the deeper meaning about what I am saying--if you are on a certain -level of understanding--you'll know exaclty what i mean- if not--then in time you may or may not find out..I think you can contribute alot--

now back to building boats-- what was this whole thread about in the first place?

 

to core or not to core !!
During early times all the power boats we did were cored including the bottoms . we took extra pride and care in everything we did . Some of the old tour operated boats were made nearly 18 to 20 years ago and still operating today . They were all cored !!!! all balsa !!! then we changed to foam and same !!,never had any problems . all the guys were seasoned and really exsperianced workers ,a couple had come from industrial glass and the rest were marine glassing people . never had a issue with anything !!!
In recent times we made racing yachts again all built to DNV survey specs because that how we worked!! no the boats were not in survey , its just a standard we all knew and we all did . never had one single problem !!Power boats we cored were not high speed (were under 20 knots ) again all cored and all exsperianced and seasoned staff . the company never had any problems with any thing associated in the glassing department
we were all what i call FIREGLASS BOAT BUILDERS !!
The boss kept out of our way because he was not exsprianced enough to work with us , many times he was simpley told to go and make the tea or go and get the lunchs of go play with the office lady !! was his wife !!. Anything but keep away and dont come and work with us !!
we all knew what every one could do we all cane from differant parts of the glassing industries BUT we all knew what we were doing .
After the first charter boat went in the water and was sorted over the charter season by then we were along way into the next 3 boats !!!The charter company rang one friday morning and told us the first boat was sitting at the marina all stocked with enough food and booze for 10 people for 5 days and some one would be there waiting with the keys .
It was there way of saying thank you for all our hard work and long hours and making such a good job and getting there boat a few days before it was promised .