Single Handed Shootout

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You're 100% right!

 

Foiler Moth / Peoples Foiler

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No, I don't think so. If it takes 15-20 for a boardsailor to keep up and we know the Moth foiler is faster in 6-15 then it's clear the foiler Moth will be faster than the board in the vast number of venues in the US where the wind is 10-12 knots or less. And equal up to 20 knots.. Sounds pretty good for a "sit down" non trapeze dinghy.
However, I don't think the Bladerider or any other Moth can compete sales wise with a board.
That's where a Peoples Foiler will come in at some point-when a big company gets involved and does what TTS suggests in his previous post.
There is an awful lot of improvement to be made in ease of setup, launching and sailing that could take a Peoples Foiler into really big sales numbers-never as many as boards- but probably better numbers than most other high performance boats under 20'.
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PS- Whups! I misread Rohans blog-the race should have taken place late yesterday or today-my apologies.

 

The Full Circle

Of course, all this is supremely speculative in nature, Doug, as but one "sample" has been performed for comparison sake and that one has serious flaws for any substantive data analysis. (see my previous post as to Doug's claims on this matter)

Get better data with a wider sample group of drivers in a wider set of documented wind ranges and you can begin to define what will work and what will not as to claims for performance in specific wind conditions.

To not have this data with your rather wild claims is purely out of the loop, as nice as the guys at BR might be. What is out there is highly subjective and because it has been performed by BR employees and/or close associates, it is tainted, no matter how you wish to slice it.

First of all, this is, perhaps, the first time that you have acknowledged that the so-called, People's Foiler, would have to compete with other high performance boats. Second... There isn't enough room, technologically, for that complete set of improvements to happen, Doug, if you wish to retain anything of the "performance envelope" of which you speak at the pricepoint you absolutely have to have to entertain any chance of economic success.

The boat, to be truly affordable, will have to be made from processes and equipment not typically available to small time boat builders. There is no hope (and even then, it's a very small hope) without a big outfit getting involved who has very deep pockets and a worldwide distribution scheme in place. That, all by itself, is a very small number of boat makers and they are decidedly picky about what projects they entertain for the purposes of being the savior of the small boat sales marketplace.

Coming full circle to this argument that has gone on for over a year and a half now.... Worldwide, the sales of small craft are in the dumper, Doug. Neither big hype nor enthusiasm will overcome that reality. The figures are even more depressing in the USA, where sales have dipped to all-time lows for numbers of boats going out the door.

A complex boat is not the answer. A simplified, toned-down, complex boat is also not the answer. An expensive boat is not the answer, either, no matter how you wish to classify the cost of USD$10K+ to the consumer.

The US economy is currently being held aloft by the outlay of cash regarding the War in Iraq. (many pardons to all for the incursion of political commentary on this, but it's true) The Wall Street Stock Market is about to tank in a big, big way based on our pending pull-out/draw-down from Iraq and with it will go any dreams of plus $10K Foiling People boats.

Really, the only thing that will prevent this will be a wildly stupid incursion into Iran and then all bets are off for the American economy pending the shut-down of the oil flow from the Middle East.

(Once again, my appologies for making political commentary as part of an on-going discussion about small craft) Unfortunately, we all live in times where political/global issues are very closely wrapped in the existing political winds and to pretend that those winds have no effect on the market behavior of the average consumer is pure folly. Sidebar rant over now.

Now, back to that really big idea about the People's Foiler.

It ain't gonna work, Doug. It's the wrong boat at the wrong time in our history. If you had proposed this circus back in the pre-oil embargo days of the free swinging 70's, I'd say you had hit the jackpot, my boy. A certifiable winner. Unfortunately, you're just another fish out of water when it comes to understanding how the world economies work and the volatility of the current political climate in this (the US) nation. Well, that and back in the 70's you would have had to buck, head to head, with Hobart Alter and his magnificent vision of the beach culture sailboat. The Hobie 16 catamaran (some quarter of a million built (and sold) and still counting) Not a good adversary in the best of times and there is no real argument involved here.

Look at the pricing structure for the BR boat. They are substantially built in China, where pricing and distribution advantages are the best in the world right now. Either they aren't passing the pricing down to the consumer (which I suspect is the gambit on their part to increase profitability in a waning and volatile marketplace) or the boat is much more expensive to produce (and ship) than everyone expected with a trip out of China in the mix.

Either way, it's no invitational panacea for being able to produce the errant and misguided, People's Foiler. (and I really wish you would start inserting the apostrophe in the word, People's as an indication that it is, of and/or belonging to the People... if you really, really, mean that beyond the sloganeering)

This idea of the PF is just so much complicated fiddle-faddle. You know it, Doug, and the rest of the good folks reading this also know it in their gut.

Please re-direct your curious and talented interest in all things positive for the small boating world and leave this overly complex notion behind as but one sidebar entry on a list of things you did well, albeit impulsively.

Simplicate, Doug, and add lightness.

As our world changes before our eyes, give us a piece of insight from your soul and create that which is beautiful in its simplicity, rather than more stuff that will eventually clutter our backyards, unused. Scuttled dreams, as it were.

You have a nice feeling for these things, find your stride in the spare statement that means something. Remember that there is a personal dream for each and every one of the possible buyers of boats such as these. Take that dream state into your person and help produce something that is meaningful and not frivolous.

Your friend,

Chris

 

Ok Doug, I admit it is pretty good for a $12k++ sit-down dinghy. But, we don't know that it is faster in 6-15. Maybe the BR guys should seek out Wojtek Brzozowsk, Steve Allen, Ross Williams, Gonzalo, Arnon or any number of other top Formula racers and prove it. But, I made my point. A Windsurfer holds the speed record and sailboards bring high performance sailing to the masses with the highest kph/$. To be a knot or two faster in special conditions at 3x the cost is hardly a victory. Foil away...

 

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Geez, Bill: its a victory if you like to pass your 50% larger catamarans sitting down as opposed to standing up(!).

 

So sitting is what it is?

Well, not exactly sitting, Doug. Maybe you could show us your abs and we'd all believe that sitting is exactly what you would be doing on a Moth Foiler?

Until then, all we have for evidence is the vast collection of photos of the full-out prostrate form of any of the top Moth guys.

I don't call that "sitting", but maybe you do.

 

gentalmen,,,,,money is not the object here,,we all spend it on boats we cant afford,,,lets just wait and see what happens when the smoke clears ,,,,,,,,tommorow,,,longliner

 

Spot the Moth Competition ;-)

See this link (you have probably seen it already)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HOH17GOd4wU&feature=related

I know one of these could not remotely be considered a singlehander (off topic? sorry) BUT

Given the discussion above where do you think a Moth would be in this video?

Mr Lord?

Others?

 

Man, thats a great video! There is an interesting comparative blurb on the KA Sails(I think) site where Amac(designer of the Bladerider) directly races a Formula(I think) board with the Moth. The Moth is faster in lighter conditons,if I remember correctly, and in stronger winds the board takes over.
Rohan Veal's blog has accounts of him racing and beating formula boards in 10-15 and also racing and beating a fleet of A Class catamarans and, at a different time some F18's.
The Moth is increasing speed(particularly around a course on foils) every year and I think its potential is still to be realized...
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In the video I note that the tri was reefed and not flying the main hull so it was considerably slower than its potential in those winds.
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When Veal has raced boards they have had much more SA-I doubt that they would be competitive in under 20knots IF they had to sail with the same SA as a Moth(approx. 8 sq.m).