Seaworthiness

I'm not defending we have to come back to 'Suhaili' type of boats, but some of the posted thinkings of RKJ are worth of some consideration when we talk cruising boats.

Cheers.

 

Well, I have been saying that since the beginning of this thread. I guess that’s why Tad considers (on another thread) that this thread goes around in circles .

Of course, what Tad says about motion also contradicts what has been said by the professional engineers that post on this thread and gives a new perspective about the sea motion of a Pogo on a seaway. The Pogo is just one of those boats with fine bows and flat and wide stern .

Guillermo at is best

NAs/Engineers against amateurs/would-be-NAs in a debate that has not always been respectuous and of course…. guess who is wrong:idea: . Obviously the ones that have not always been respectuous of the superior knowledge of the Engineers. Amateurs against Engineers, and not simple amaterurs, but unrespegtuous amateurs. Bad, very bad .

Well, Guillermo and Mike are not sailboat designers and Sailboat designers of this forum have carefully avoided this thread and even experienced NAs have stayed out. Why?
As we have seen, TAD considers this thread “to be an endless circular discussion … mostly boiled down to subjective opinion.”

The few real Sailboat designers that have posted on this thread have said things like:

Rhough is only an amateur and of the worst kind , I mean a retro Dude and probably disrespectful, but what he have said is plainly evident:

I would add that almost anybody, in what refers to sail boat designers is following Guillermo’s opinion about what “the modern paradigm of cruising boats” should be.

Well, it may be your Paradigm, but if we look at the modern work of all significant sailboat designers, in what concerns small bluewater cruisers, we will see that your notion of what the Paradigm of a small oceangoing boat should be, is really a very lonely and personal one. Almost anybody is going along that road.

I guess, their choice regarding stability and seaworthiness has to do to what PI Design was pointing out:

“ It is an interesting question whether pre-event or post-event attributes are more important. Certainly prevention is better than cure….”

Modern sailboat designers are giving more importance to pre-events, I mean, boats that, compared with Guillermo’s Paradigmatic boat, are a lot more difficult to capsize, and that can be sailed successfully in a storm, than to post-events (recovering from an inverted position), even if their sailboats can recover from an inverted position in a reasonable period of time (just not as fast as the narrow boats that Guillermo prefers).

So it seems that in reality, it is the opinion of amateurs and the vast majority of modern sailboat designers against the opinion of some naval engineers that are not even sailboat designers. That will balance the odds, or maybe not….

I have said that I would not tolerate any more rudeness of your part. I know that you from time to time apologize from your bad manners, but I have enough. Besides I agree with Tad, this thread goes in circles, it is not analytical, and it is full of unsubstantiated and unfair opinions.

PS. About unfair comments, have one as an example:

Guillermo, do you sail? “Accidents” like the one shown on that video happen to everybody that sails and likes to go fast. Last year that “accident” happened to me 3 or 4 times, but not at 9K, mostly at 12K .

Those “accidents” are completely harmless in a modern boat and on that sea condition. If you don’t know enough or are afraid of having fun, you have just to reduce sail and you avoid that kind of situations.

The only capsizing that I can see in that movie is the one from the movie camera.

 

Dear all,
On March the 1st to the 4th it will take place the Vigo Boat Show (http://www.nauvigo.com/)
The Naval Architects and Marine Engineers Association of Spain (which's Galician chapter I preside) is organizing there a one day conference (saturday) on recreational boating. Program includes 7 lecturers talking about technical and not technical matters, as this is an open to the public conference. I will read a lecture on the STIX. Everybody is invited, including Vega.
Cheers.

 

Vega

I'm sure I have mentioned this to you before:

I do design yachts and I have at various times in the last 25 years or so had a sporadic involvement with yacht design, mostly in larger sailing vessels. I have knocked out a few designs myself but I only sell the one niche market stock yacht design, aimed at self builders and smaller yards. I have sold yacht plans through this forum.


I am also concerned over your understanding of Marine Engineers or Naval Architects and what you call “Yacht Designers”. Yacht design is not a mystic and separate calling but is a subset of a broader discipline. Any Marine engineer/NA should be able to get up to speed on the complexities of yacht design in relatively short order, and debate issues with a full and thorough understanding of the complexities therein.

Cheers



Guillermo
Good luck with the lecture.

 

Good on you Guillermo!

Take seaworthiness to the podium, and harvest some opinions from this thread to spice things up a little.

 

Thanks Mike and Rayk.
Although not considering myself a sailboats designer (except for the dozen or so of designs I've done quite some years ago), I'm professionally a certified RCD surveyor and assesser for CE marking, as well as regularly perform other sailboats assessments under the spanish regulations, so I have a daily deal with these matters. I hope the lecture will be interesting to attendants.
Cheers.

 

The ones I know would not agree. They know how much specialized knowledge is needed for their "subset" and don't presume that they would be "up to speed" in another subset in anything like "short order". This applies to engineers and scientists alike, not just those in the marine field. None of them ever assume that a subject is beyond the grasp of others and when asked questions never belittle their audience with statements like those made by some of the Marine Engineers and NA's in this thread.

 

Wow! That statement is at once, so arrogant and so naive, that I cannot see how I would ever allow your opinion to come under my consideration ever again.

Nothing about this thread, including the initial premise (or lack thereof) and the vague couching of the argument on the very first post has the earmarks of a professional engineer. The use of meaningless words like "seaworthy" and "cruising" were used to try to give more meaning to a single aspect of yacht design than it deserved.
Nothing here is supposed to be under the scrutiny of a professional peer review so it is assumed to be casual. So don't pull out the "I am a professional" unless you are prepared to act like one.
I come here to learn about boats and engineering...not how to be arrogant.

Thanks

 

Probably that's why this thread has come up to post number 624 and you're still around here...

 

Randy,
May we turn turtle your words?
"The ones I know would not agree. They know how much specialized knowledge is needed for their "subset" and don't presume that they would be "up to speed" in another subset in anything like "short order". This applies to amateurs and aficionados alike, not just those in the marine field. None of them ever assume that a subject is beyond the grasp of others and when asked questions never belittle their audience with statements like those made by some of the amateurs and aficionados in this thread."
Would it be fair?
Cheers.

 

I am a patient man, if it takes 624 posts to glean 10 posts worth of information then I will wait and watch.

 

I don't know that any of the self proclaimed non-degreed posters in this thread have been guilty of taking a self-important "I know more than you do" stance. I have reacted when someone pushes out their chest, proclaims themselves with a title or a degree and then tells me I'm not educated enough to understand the answer to a question. Holding an engineering degree is not proof against bias and ignorance. Some of the engineers and scientists I know come up with the most far-fetched and impractical ideas when faced with a problem outside their area of expertise. Just holding a certification or degree lends no more weight to one's opinion. We have to remember that 50% of engineers graduated in the bottom half of their class. I expect those that have completed formal education in a subject to be able to answer direct questions.

I find it odd that anyone with a combination of formal education and practical experience would equate or try to measure "seaworthiness" in terms of stability. It has been my experience that people define and measure things using systems and methods they are familiar with. I think the length of this thread shows that "seaworthiness" is next to impossible to define, much less measure. The level of frustration of those that wish to "prove" their knowledge is superior and that modern designs are not seaworthy has lead to evasive answers, no answers, or holier than thou statements. When self-proclaimed professionals become evasive and pompous, I ridicule them. In my little corner of reality, respect is earned. Those that expect it for whatever reason are held to a higher standard because they think their opinion should carry more weight. There is nothing more satisfying to me than listening to an ego deflate.

 

Ok it walks talks and quacks like a troll and it's off topic but it needs addressing.


Originally Posted by MikeJohns
Vega
I am also concerned over your understanding of Marine Engineers or Naval Architects and what you call “Yacht Designers”. Yacht design is not a mystic and separate calling but is a subset of a broader discipline. Any Marine engineer/NA should be able to get up to speed on the complexities of yacht design in relatively short order, and debate issues with a full and thorough understanding of the complexities therein

Yet you appear to have voiced a very superior judgmental opinion most arrogantly.


If you had asked me to explain I would have been happy to say the following:

The complexities of hull design and the hydrodynamics therein, will have been mastered by any NA/ME otherwise they would not have graduated. Design factors including control, stability, strength, resistance, and motion would be immediately understood by any hull designer, the difference with a sailboat is keel design and Aero-dynamics of sails , leeway and heel angles.

Any hull designer worth their salt would already be aware of the compromises inherent in the hull-forms adopted for sailing vessels, and the effects and compromises this has on operational characteristics.

By up to speed in short order I mean the reading of books such as "Principles of Yacht Design" a novice would take many months to fully absorb the material in such a tome. A professional in the field would already understand the principles and would need to learn how those principles are applied. This would make it light reading, and I would suggest for most NA/ME a few nights would suffice, but lets give them a fortnight to be on the safe side.

 

Calling me a troll will not make your point any more believable. Nor can condescending to deal with me as if I were the problem here. I very quietly watched this thread for a long time hoping that it would morphose into some revalations and meeting of two different disciplines to produce useful ideas. There were some good moments, but your comment was not one of them. I would dare to say that your comment was insulting to more than one person that reads this material. Sorry all I will not interupt again.

 

Getting insulted by NA/ME that think they know it all is not really an insult is it? People that think they have all the answers are ignorant of their own limitations. I would dare to say that the posters that get characterized as ignorant or amateur are far from being un-knowing and NE/ME's are far from being all-knowing. If you listen to the "everything is measurable and quantifiable" group then ask them to measure or quantify something, the response you get is hard to measure or quantify as an answer.

The biggest danger in letting some of the statements in this thread go unchallenged is that some poor fool will take an engineer at their word, put a 500 kg mast in a boat because "heavier rigs are more stable" and kill their family.