Seawind 24 tacking...

[Moggy]

... basically they don't do it very well. They seem to come to a halt almost no matter what you do and it is near impossible to carry any decent speed through a tack. Obviously they can be tacked, it is not that hard to do but it is never like I read in boat tests of latter small cats.

Looking at my boat on a trailer and I am assuming that the hull rocker has a lot to do with it. They seem to have too much area below the water forward so you are dragging a bit of a sea anchor sideways when you turn.

I have considered major surgery on the centerboards, basically sitting them upright and moving them to the inboard side. This would entail new boards, a new profile and new cases. The aim would be to improve windward performance and make them easier to use. My first thought was to put them exactly where they are but then I wondered if I could impact the tacking ability by moving them. I'm guessing not, I suspect there is little that can be done but I have to ask!

Now before I get flak for messing with a design, keep in mind that Seawind 24's where not so much designed as just created in a seemingly organic way by a jazz musician! They have many design flaws... but we love them all the same...

Yes I know its a WOFTAM... so lets just call it an intellectual exercise for the moment.

Do ya reckon anything can be done make these things tack smoothly?

Cheers
Moggy.

 

[oldsailor7]

Moggy.
Before we start giving you spurious advice, can you tell us how you sail.
IE:- Do you sail solo or with crew.? How long have you had the Seawind.
Have you had experience with other Cats ? Are your hulls and boards clean ?
Are your sails in good shape ? Do you have loads of "stuff" on board.?
Are your Jib sheet leads adjustable and in the right position ?
Do you sheet the jib in tight as you come up into the wind, and allow it to become fully "backed" until the mainsail is filling. Are your boards fully, (or at least half down) when tacking. Any other info you can give us.

P.S. Whats a WOFTAM.

 

[waikikin]

Moggy.
Before we start giving you spurious advice, can you tell us how you sail.
IE:- Do you sail solo or with crew.? How long have you had the Seawind.
Have you had experience with other Cats ? Are your hulls and boards clean ?
Are your sails in good shape ? Do you have loads of "stuff" on board.?
Are your Jib sheet leads adjustable and in the right position ?
Do you sheet the jib in tight as you come up into the wind, and allow it to become fully "backed" until the mainsail is filling. Are your boards fully, (or at least half down) when tacking. Any other info you can give us.

P.S. Whats a WOFTAM.

Old Sailer, where you been.... Waste Of effin Time & Money

Moggy, you might try this.. as you steer into the tack-push the tiller to lee, grab a bit of traveller- to weather, this helps "sail" the boat into the tack, leave the jib sheeted & let backwind for just a second, then sheet quickly for the new course, the main is now slightly depowered/set down, as speed builds on the new course bring the main back on with the traveller to suit, Worked a treat on my Beach Marine & was what I was taught to do in the eighties on fractional rigged boats, on my Seawind I mostly grow barnacles
See quite often on forums to "let the main go" when tacking multies, seems like a recipie for a flogging sail.... I say drive the traveller! But try a few stategies.
Jeff.

 

[catsketcher]

Gday Moggy

To my mind it is bad design to have to back the jib to tack a multi. Nowadays with rounder sections up front and flatter sections aft than the Seawind, most cats do not need the jib backed. Before you start to do too much to the boards I would suggest a few smaller wrinkles.

Check your Ackerman. Take the boat out and tack it with the rudders not linked - on one rudder only. Maybe it does not tack any worse so you may need to increase or decrease Ackerman but I would expect this to be fine on the 24.

Increase rudder size. I am constantly amazed at how small cat rudders are and how large mono rudders are. When a cat comes out of a tack the load on the rudders is high. If you have cleated the main the first part of the whole rig to start developing lift is the leech of the main. Both the boards and the rudder are expected to take a high load at very low flow. Very few cat designers ever talk about this high loading - they all want to reduce size because cats go fast - bollocks I say! My very sweet little cat tacks like a normal cat, needing gentle steering and main trim in and out to tack on ONE rudder. Put both big rudders down and she tacks and handles like a sweet mono at low speeds. No design insights just big rudders.

Lighten the boat. The Seawinds immerse their transoms a lot. If you can get the boat a little lighter it should be able to swing around easier as the hulls aren't so deeply immersed.

Make the boards bigger. As you tack (or do anything slow) the boards will stall and you will lose control. Make the boards longer to give them greater area. This will allow the boards to operate without stalling.

So bung some cedar onto the bottom of the foils. Glass over the join and add some unis to the exit points to cater for the larger size (although the load will not be increased much at higher speeds as you will use less angle of attack.

cheers

Phil

 

[catsketcher]

remember its a torque

I probably didn't make it clear enough above but my sweet tacking little cat has one ginormous centreboard as well as big rudders. Big rudders on their own won't do as you are creating a torque and a torque requires TWO forces acting in opposite directions around a distance so you need better boards AND rudders set apart.

I would just glue on some extras cedar onto the bottom of both the rudders and centreboards and go out in light winds. If it makes a difference then reinforce the foils - if not try something else.

Phil

 

[Moggy]

Hey Guys...

Thanks for the comments... I am a pretty experienced sailor and the boat is setup as well as a standard SW24 can be AND I have no trouble tacking it.... BUT in my opinion they still lose way too much speed through a tack. They do come to a virtual stop which is why various mainsail easing strategies are needed, you need the power from the headsail to come on before the main until the boat gains forward momentum. I simply crack the main a bit and get the headsail set as fast as possible, no backing required and it is about the fastest way out of the hole once you have tacked.

The issue is the boat, it doesn't tack anywhere near as well many other small cats from the stuff that I have read... with all the will and skill in the world they don't effectively carry way through a tack, they tack like an old beach cat.

Phil... thanks. The boat is empty, I unloaded all the crap that came with it, removed about half the fittings and replaced the hard decks with ones about half the weight... next the center console will be replaced... it is way TOO heavy. The rudders are standard, I might rough up some big ones and see what it does, she does seem to lack steerage at low speed. You probably have a very good point about size!

I'm doing the boards anyway, she needs to go to windward better than she does however they will be the last thing, after some rig tweaking, dolphin & pelican strikers and a blade head sail.

Yeah I know... its only a SW24 but sorting it is half the fun with me.

Cheers
Moggy

 

[BobBill]

I just caught this and wonder, is there an easier way to set up rudders? Seems Hobie just says they have to be toed in a hair? Seems to me as boat moves through the tack, the angles must adjust more or less automatically...as implied above, but after a certain point, might not make any difference in a general sense, not racing of course.

 

[waikikin]

Hey Guys...

Thanks for the comments... I am a pretty experienced sailor and the boat is setup as well as a standard SW24 can be AND I have no trouble tacking it.... BUT in my opinion they still lose way too much speed through a tack. They do come to a virtual stop which is why various mainsail easing strategies are needed, you need the power from the headsail to come on before the main until the boat gains forward momentum. I simply crack the main a bit and get the headsail set as fast as possible, no backing required and it is about the fastest way out of the hole once you have tacked.

The issue is the boat, it doesn't tack anywhere near as well many other small cats from the stuff that I have read... with all the will and skill in the world they don't effectively carry way through a tack, they tack like an old beach cat.

Phil... thanks. The boat is empty, I unloaded all the crap that came with it, removed about half the fittings and replaced the hard decks with ones about half the weight... next the center console will be replaced... it is way TOO heavy. The rudders are standard, I might rough up some big ones and see what it does, she does seem to lack steerage at low speed. You probably have a very good point about size!

I'm doing the boards anyway, she needs to go to windward better than she does however they will be the last thing, after some rig tweaking, dolphin & pelican strikers and a blade head sail.

Yeah I know... its only a SW24 but sorting it is half the fun with me.

Cheers
Moggy

Hi Moggy
Like an old beach cat....
Maybe they're relatively heavy for the size compared to newer boats, the bows are full & flared too, this might stop them in the chop.

A millenium version would be interesting.... retaining just some styling influence but with lighter laminates, new rocker & bows etc. but still retaining the very basic camping accommodation/bunks with some options for console, demountable, sleek removable hard top, graphics/sponsors. There's been plenty of speculation on Ideal trailerable tris/one design with some discussion to other forums, Tooling cost for a sweet small cat are indeed a fraction for that of a tri so much quicker development than I've seen on the tris. Maybe as a kit but structurally complete so far as hull units are concerned. If it could come together for a reasonable finance package...... it could be a winner

Jeff.

 

[YoungGrumpy]

Is it the weather or? I just asked pretty much the same question on the Multi-Forum, like, yesterday?
My Seawind was (summer is over, some snow is in the forecast for tomorrow) quite light, hulls are empty, just a bag with some basic equipment. I made a new daggerboards, better than ones I've got from PO (I do not know if they were original), and rudders, again I believe, a bit better than the originals. Sails are quite good IMHO, brand new, full battened main, and non-overlapping jib from Calvert Sails. With my zero of experience with catamarans and far from ideal jib sheeting... I've spend a lot of time going backwards or just sitting with the main flogging.

 

[YoungGrumpy]

Jeff,
Just to clarify, are you considering to bring to the market a better, modern version of SW 24?
Last year, before I've got mine, I talked to David at Boatsmith. He gave me some rough estimates for the hulls, in foam/glass, no finish and no hardware...
to the design of Richard Woods, Wizzer (7.65 m, basic accommodations in the hulls, racing oriented...) from $25K, and an understanding that if I find another taker, the price will come down (as we split the cost of the molds). You could quesstimate the rig, hardware etc. and possible time/cost to finish such a project. My decision was to play with the SW for couple of years.

 

[waikikin]

Jeff,
Just to clarify, are you considering to bring to the market a better, modern version of SW 24?
Last year, before I've got mine, I talked to David at Boatsmith. He gave me some rough estimates for the hulls, in foam/glass, no finish and no hardware...
to the design of Richard Woods, Wizzer (7.65 m, basic accommodations in the hulls, racing oriented...) from $25K, and an understanding that if I find another taker, the price will come down (as we split the cost of the molds). You could quesstimate the rig, hardware etc. and possible time/cost to finish such a project. My decision was to play with the SW for couple of years.

YG, sometimes I have trains of thought........ considering my current seawind is active in the "aqua-culture" arena(supporting marine habitat of barnacles/cunje/etc I should probably focus my thoughts on that... & I have a factory with other currently idle tooling, I should probably focus on that...... this weekend I have a scarab power boat to push out the door for pick up on monday... I should focus on filling the space left after that with a project with sooner return$.

Thing is though... is that the original Seawind 24 concept is cool as all get out, just wondering out load if there was a market in this modern world for it or similar. over the past 5-6 years there's been plenty of discussion around regarding a reasonably hot mid 20s tri for one design/racing/fun for small fleet competition. Complication of tris & folding drives cost of these up, cats are simple if "tube" connectives are used, simple molded deck saddles, bolts & loads dispersion via collision bulkhead & transom seemed to work fine.
Jeff.

 

[redreuben]

http://www.teamscarab.com.au/7.3cat/design.html

 

[waikikin]

http://www.teamscarab.com.au/7.3cat/design.html

Great Link redreuben, looks like a real handy small cruising cat.
Where my mind was wandering is kinda more organic, lighter but with a similar assembly..... as already indicated from where I stand there's a perfectly good SW24 I have on a mooring that just needs a lick of antifoul & some details tidied, maybe when I clear up some work & have some more fun on the SW over summer...........
Jeff.