Sandblasted..

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by harrisdr, Apr 5, 2008.

  1. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    dream on boys, I get pissed off (like Frosty) reading some of this crap, sometimes we have to face reality....I think I will go have my medicine...
     
  2. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    I am with you on this one Jack.
    Just put a Dix 43 together (link elsewhere on forum) and have used ONLY hand power to fit and put plates in place. To pull shape onto plates with chainblocks, hammers and whatever it takes is for amateurs and these paper folding trick boats are not very pleasing to look at either.
    Before origami followers stone me, compare your boats with a proper built round bilge / radius chined boat and tell me what you see.....
     
  3. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Brent Swain Member

    Sandblasted

    In the water , you can't tell an origamiboat from a round bilged boat , but the origami boat needs absolutely no filler to look fair.
    In my book I mention that the only way to judge advice is by taking a long critical look at what it has done for the person offering it.
    If a person has taken may years and mega bucks to get out cruising, and if that is what you want to do, then get your advice from him. If however the objective is to get out cruising quickly in a good looking , well proven boat without going deeply in debt, leaving enough money left over to do what the boat is meant for , freedom, then you'd be wise to get your advice from someone who has accomplished that.
    My current 31 footer took one month from the steel arrival to launching and I got her sailing and liveable for $6,000.
    I often lie in a peacefull anchorage in the morning and turn on the traffic report in the morning to see how the "proper "boatbuilders are doing. I then blow a fart in their honour and go back to sleep , dreaming of round bilge masochists setting up frames and trying to force steel to fit them .I have worked a month a year since getting her sailing 24 years ago. The rest is playtime.
    If you are being paid by the hour for doing things the hard way, by the gullible , then round bilge is definitly more efficient.
    If your are building for yourself with the goal of getting out cruising quickly, and not wasting too much of life's limited time trying to impress the naive, then origami is far more efficient, and logical. You won' t be needing any bondo to make it look good.
    The first step in defining 'Efficiency " is to define what you are trying to accomplish.
    Avoid getting your advice from disciples of the "Be reaonable and do it the hard way" religion.
    It is a throwback to puritanism, defined as the terrible, nagging fear that someone , somewhere, just might be having a good time.
    Brent
     
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  4. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    everyone to its own Brent.

    However, not to go in an argument, lets consider this.
    Life is full of people with different opinions and values - same with trades, for example; you get boilermakers and boilermakers. One worked his whole life in a window factory for instance and the other in a proper pressure vessel fabrication workshop, which would be the better tradesman?

    Same with amateurs boatbuilders; you get some that will have the ability to tackle a multi chined hull, some are even more industrious and will tackle a radius chine or round bilge hull. In my view it is all about what you want and can build and not so much about economics. If you worries how much it's gonna cost, you probably cannot afford it. And for the crunch, a hull and deck only represent about 14% of the total value of a sail-a-way boat based on my experiences over the last 21 years.
    Then you get the amateur boatbuilder that is scared of his own ability to work with steel, wants a boat and will go for any type of other construction that is easy and simple, regardless of the end result.....actually, I once saw a homemade special with steel garden chairs welded on the flat and barren deck:D

    Then you have people that for various reasons not want to build a boat themselves, having it built by professionals. It is not a question of the builder being gullible, it is what the client wants, period. Some people in life do have healthy bank accounts and are used to better things in life.
    For instance, I am a motorcar salesman; someone wants to buy a Porsche, and I tell him - hey, leave that ****, this Toyota Corolla is a much better car and cheaper. What would he do?

    Why would someone who can afford to build a quality boat be worried about this statement you made:?: In fact, I think its just the other way around.

    And as a parting note my friend, us professional boatbuilders do not consider ourselves "round bilge masochists" and we do not force steel plates to fit them. I personally believe you are afraid of round bilge construction and if you force & pull plates with chain blocks (seen photos) into shape with your simple building method, you will not pass the grade.....(no insult meant)

    BTW, Van Der Stadt frameless multi chine hull assembles much faster than Origami and looks great. I suggest you take a look at my website as a few of these boats are featured there.
     
  5. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    WynardN,

    Well put my friend, I just about sums up the whole shootin' match.

    If I knew how to give you pionts, you would have 100.
     
  6. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Wynand N,

    You are a very fair man, because you did not mention you have a link to a Brent boat on your website.

    http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/index.html

    http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/images/PA250033.JPG

    http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/images/PA250024.JPG

    I hold the opinion that you are doing a damn fine job with Waratah and there'll be no need for bondo (which, being a car body filler, is not acceptable, as well you know!)

    http://www.steelboatbuilder.com/paint2.html

    Lurvely curves.:D :D :D

    http://steelboatbuilder.com/projects7.html

    Best wishes,

    Perry
     
  7. harrisdr
    Joined: Sep 2007
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    harrisdr Junior Member

    Well, Gentlemen, I think I'll buy me a welding machine and do the job myself.
    So I just might save myself sometime for sailing - for sailings sakes :rolleyes:
     
  8. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

    AND NOW my 2 cents worth:D

    Harris fix that boat! You can still have a lot of fun out of it, the photos indicate that the rust is not everywhere.

    Origami boat building, i see as similar to stitch and glue, lay down the sheets - pull together with cable ties / chainblocks then glue / weld together, then install frames etc. very similar approach. My experience with my "little ****" projects has brought me to conclude that my next build will be on frames and a strong back, straight and true, the extra time taken is not that much. Having that big thing wobble all over the show, and them to customise cut and fit everything inside wastes a lot of time. A good set of drawings and you can do many small things before the time and know that they will fit!!

    I have visited all the sites / groups as refered to above and more - they are all good BUT all the "quick build" promises are difficult for the "home builder" to comprehend. There is not enough emphasis to prepare them for the TIME and COST of finishing. As Wynand said the hull is 14% of the cost and i think it is 10% of the time. So the fact that the quick build saved time on the hull is of little help. Build the boat you like not the boat that promises to save time on the hull.

    My background is engineering / boilermaking and this origami thing is not new, it may save on some welding not much more. The fairing of boats today has become stupid and way over the top, there is no need for that mirror / high gloss finish on a hull, and welding should be dressed not ground down flush anyway. And now back to where we started HARRIS FIX THAT BOAT:D :D
     
  9. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

    Harris buy a welding machine and give it a go, herewith photos of my silly little boat AND trailer that i built, and a lovely welding machine, you MUST go inverter it welds very easy, up to 3.15mm rods and 3 mm plate.

    If you REALLY want to see a absolute professional at work go to http://www.steelboatbuilder.com/ :D
     

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  10. Wynand N
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Brent, if I offended you in any way with my above post, I sincerely apologizes.

    I got a bit warm under the collar with your usual bad cracks aimed at professional boat builders. Having said that,everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but lets keep it civilized and constructive.

    I said it before that you do a worthwhile thing and gets sailing on a shoestring budget while some of us still try to afford it, which I admire of you. Everyone believes in himself to be the best, from the humble self builder to the pro and it is normal human behavior, but in doing so one has to respect others for having the same believe and values.

    Harrisdr, I am with Manie - get your boat fixed and go sailing and sorry about going off the topic with your thread...

    Perry, thanks for the kind words :cool:
     
  11. harrisdr
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    harrisdr Junior Member

    Thank you all for the encouragement.
    Manie B, your humour sounds Hollandmaessig. So here's one a Dutch friend once told me:
    Engine stops while guy is driving in the country side. He checks, can't find what's wrong and then, this Horse shows up, pushes him aside, touches something here something there, goes around turns the key.. engine starts!! Horse jumps back to the fields and disappears in the distance, our guy having lost his brains drives to the next Farm knocks on the door and tells the story to the farmer who scratches his head for a while and then looks meaningfully at the guy and asks: Say, the horse, was it black, or white?? -White!!, says he, I swear to God it was White!! - Hmm, says the farmer, it was your lucky day Mr.. Because the Black one, has no idea about Cars!! :D
     
  12. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    I measured several of my boats from decks to centreline. They were symetrical within 1/16th of an inch. The principle is simple . If you make six squares and tack them corner to corner ,the outcome can't be anything but square , It is the same for more complex shapes like hulls and decks . As long as the hull patterns and deck patterns are the same from side to side the results a can't be anything but true. The hull is floppy until you get the decks on ,then as long as the shapes and their contact points are the same from side to side, the end shape is a foregone conclusion.
    I often help my clients get their steel work done , for an hourly rate. They learn a lot of usefull metal working skills in the process and some get their welding ,fitters tickets as a result.
    Brent
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2008
  13. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    sandblasting

    There is no way you could build a Van De Stadt as quickly as an origami hull . You just have to add up the number of feet of seams to fit and weld up to see that.
    When I eliminated the seams in the bow and stern I eliminated 64 feet of cutting, welding, fiting, and grinding. One client had an hour meter on the only welder he used to build a 36 . By the time the boat was sailing he had a total of 350 hours welding time on the machine. There is no way you could do a Van De Stadt in that time. I do greatly respect Van de Stadt for being one of the few designers who really took advantage of the properties of steel, instead of sticking dogmatically to imitation wooden boat building in steel.
    A friend , who had built a Roberts 44 ,started to build a Van de Stadt 34 at the same time as I was starting a 36. I pulled the shell together ( hull, decks, cabin,cockpit , keel ,rudder , skeg, wheelhouse, then went to visit my friend , He had the shed built and the frames half done. I finished detailing the 36 ( lifelines , handrails ,hatches pulpit, pushpit,self steering , winch bases , etc etc, in otherwords, tacked together all the metalwork. By then he had only the hull plates in place, but not welded.
    I'm sure livery stable owners once said " I don't think those horseless carriages will ever catch on . People should stop being so lazy and do things properly, in a horse and buggy."
    If I had ever worried about the total cost of a boat , I'd never have owned one. Not having bought that line has allowed me to cruise almost full time since I was 27 years old, and cross the Pacific singlehanded in my early 20's. This is the case for many cruisers who refused to get discouraged from living their dreams . It's also a line used to create a kind of elitism amoung those who make it off the treadmill, and discourage many others.
    Brent
     
  14. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    I actually put a v/d Stadt 34 hull and deck together, completely welded , shotblasted and primer painted in 18 days flat. Not bad going ;)
     

  15. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

    Slow down Brent slow down.

    This is exactly the kind of comment that makes me worry big time. I am a potential builder / plans buyer. And i find many folks that are selling plans / DVD / books etc. making statements that are questionable.

    There are so many boats lying around the world unfinished in steel / ferrocement / GRP because the "home builder" in his dream state thought that it would be quick and cheap. We only hear of those that get finished but i would love to know how many there are that will never get finished.

    I dont think that there is enough assistance in general form many of the designers to assist the builder in preparing a basic budget. I for one am not happy with what has been sent my way. When i asked questions i got silly replies like do you want gold plated or will galvanize do? Where is a minimalistic budget so that i can a least prepare myself for the expenses that will be coming my way over the next three years? Where are plans for cheaper spars, can i get by on 10 hp Honda outboard, two plate stove etc. I would like to get that basic information from the designer / study plans and not the reply - buy my book! There are already too many books on the market!

    The next point that is a HUGE problem is when the home builder wants to SELL his boat. His was never encouraged to build well, he was shown how to build fast, often overlooking small things in the begining of the build that are vitually impossible to fix later. This i see on a regular basis at the yachting clubs where i go. They think the boat is some kind of an investment, until they have to wake up to reality.

    If the buider wants to slap a piece of junk together for his own use, so be it, the harbours are full of them all over the world, but please lets at least tell them not to go near the fire and get burnt. Many of these home builders start of big, why only god knows. I know of a fellow that is building a big boat at present that has never sailed, there are folks that dont even get to the water.

    The home buider should build in three stages, firstly a dinghy of his own design - so that he can appreciate a good set of professional plans and at least go and row and see the missus and children run away, secondly a small cabin boat and actually SLEEP on the water - that leads to divorce and lastly out of frustration slap a piece of junk together to show the world he can do it. I read the Yahoo groups and i see the photos of very good and very bad and i wonder and i wonder i do

    Most of them wont, they will end up with a hull:confused:
     
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