Gentlemen,
I am really glad that you have recovered the discussion to a reasonable footing. I think it has gone off track recently.
While this is my first contribution to this forum, I have been following its path for some time. My qualification to comment is as a life long Moth enthusiast, designer and builder, International Moth class world president for 10 years, 2nd in the Moth worlds twice in Scows, survivor of the Moth Scow -> Skiff transition and was the first to introduce both wing mounted foils on Moths in 1997 (Trifoiler style) and Centreboard/Rudder foils in 1998 (first ever Bifoiler). Am still developing foilers and have just succeeded in sailing the first ever "Unifoiler" Moth last weekend.... yes, that's right, only one foil in the water!.
I find this to be a really good design discussion forum site but this particular discussion has run out of steam a little, diverging to some crazy, ill informed statements. The main reason seems to be that it is just that, a discussion, rather than a place where new ideas are shared. In fact I really wonder if there are many new ideas out there at all? Most contributions seem to be simply confirming what is already known. This is of course important, because there is a lot of misinformation about what really matters in design.
Discussion about Moth rules and popularity etc should be handled on the Moth website and is the concern of the Moth class. In the interim,
I think Moths are the ideal test forum for foilers as they are a state-of-the-art class already. If you can't beat a current Moth in all conditions in a regatta, then it is not a real improvement! This is a far healthier scenario than for most other class developments where a manufacturer generally comes up with a slight bigger version of an existing class and makes it one design. Of course it is a little faster ...sometimes...., but there is no competitive yardstick. Many of these developments are actually backwards steps, but there is no valid comparison available.
I would like to propose we begin a completely new thread, to encourage a collaborative group to actually design a new boat (a bit like Linux) where we split the contributions into Hull, Rig, Foils, class rules etc and discuss each separately but in detail and with a common aim in mind. Perhaps it could be a big Moth singlehander or an open two man 14. Do you think this could work?. We would then hopefully move from conjecture and existing class prejudices to real design contributions and perhaps encourage people to build, test for themselves and contribute the results.
To get things going I would like to share some thoughts, new ideas and experience....
I have recently modified an old non-winged scow Moth hull, placed a single foil on the centreboard and a retractable surface running foil at the bow. No rudder T foil at all. Total cost of materials to make the foils is about $200, even less if you simply modify your existing centreboard!.
I took it out last Sunday and got it up and going in about 10-12 kts of wind. There are many things to improve yet, but in principle it all works fine, no capsizes and some good bursts of speed on reaches!. It is really amazing to realize it is possible to sail with only ONE foil in the water!.
The principle is not new, Rich Miller has a sailboard already doing 35 kts with a similar arrangement. This is just the first application to dinghies. There is a long way to go yet, but 35kt Moth is a real possibility...that should really set the A class discussion to rest!
This means it is possible to use existing, old boats and adapt them to foils. I see no need for a new range of specialist hulls just for foiling. In fact some of the older and more stable hulls may perform even better as they are still good in light winds. It is also relatively cheap to make the necessary modifications. The boat is launched in the same way as a normal dinghy. In conclusion, it is indeed possible to have a low cost, high speed, easy to handle foiler suitable for begginers and speed demons alike, which should put to bed all the conjecture that has been rasied about foilers to date.
In my opinon, most of the fears about foiling come from not being able to imagine what is possible, not actually having a go and even worse, doing nothing to actively develop a solution! Some of those who looked at the original Brett Burville foiler Moth contraption were horrified at its ungainly, impractical but fast foils and immediately wanted to ban these from the Moth class. It is only with imagination and some real drive from the Isletts etc that we have made real progress, and I am sure there is a lot more to come in terms of simplification, speed, handling and low cost! There is only one way to find out, I encourage all of you to give it a go and develop your own solutions!
I believe the International Moth class should be proud to be the only class prepared to allow foil development.
Without such an open forum, Moths would have remained Scows and foiler development would have ceased at Trifoilers.
In the long run I am sure Moths and all future classes will benefit. You can't sit around on a displacement hull forever and still say you have the fastset singlehander! The alternative is that foiler development will continue, bypass Moths as sailboards have done and a new, much faster foiler class will emerge, perhaps even surpassing the Moth in numbers. Who would want a difficult to sail, short, slow narrow skiff .......would then be the argument!!
I agree completely with the contributions of John Islett, Doug Lord and Andrew Stevenson.
Looking forward to some new contributions, fresh ideas and building activity!
