Sailboat Design and Operation and Improvements to

[slboatdesing]

I am not a sailor - yet, but I do envy the rest of you gliding in innocent pleasure over the water. A recent first time ride on a sailing catamaran filled me with amazement and created a magical experience I will never forget. Many many questions remain, as anyone thrust into a new world that until now he never knew existed.

This thread is made out of curiosity more than from experience, I have been unable to find the information I am looking for, even in Gerr's Art of Boating.

So I hope the kind salty souls will continue help me understand.

First of all, why don't any sailboats or yachts I see have tilting masts? The sailboard has that, since it may not be possible to heel over a sailboard, but there is a patent for this, still. Heeling over is both exciting and a tradition at the same time, however my first ride in a catamaran (pictured) with one side higher than the other and the need to move from side to side with the onboard expert sailor did make me wonder if there was a better way.

EP1899215A1 - Sailboat with tilting mast - Google Patents https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1899215A1/en

Somewhat related is wing foiling is a new sport in the extreme that I have observed but have no personal experience with.

Beginner’s guide to wing foiling - Foiling Magazine https://www.thefoilingmagazine.com/beginners-guide-to-wing-foiling/

 

[Skyak]

A man named Hoyt invented, patented, and built a monohull that sailed flat while the mast was fixed to the keel and the two were free to heel in gusts. It was more than 17 years ago so feel free to look it up and use it.
Canting keels are common in high performance monohull classes and if you use them right the boat stays upright with little need for mast heeling.
These features are not more common because buyers don't value them as much as the simplicity of fixing the mast to the boat.

 

[Ike]

A man named Hoyt invented, patented, and built a monohull that sailed flat while the mast was fixed to the keel and the two were free to heel in gusts. It was more than 17 years ago so feel free to look it up and use it.
Canting keels are common in high performance monohull classes and if you use them right the boat stays upright with little need for mast heeling.
These features are not more common because buyers don't value them as much as the simplicity of fixing the mast to the boat.

I might add that canting keels and tilting masts are more expensive than fixed keels and typical masts. Cost is a big factor for people buying boats.

 

[slboatdesing]

Tilting keels seem to work well. How about sailing catamarans? Is it possible to keep heel over angles to low ranges during an excursion (the catamaran I was on did this) but also maintain acceptable average speeds for a journey? I have read that sailboats can take roughly four times the time to get somewhere, I am not sure how this all figures in.

America's Cup Hydrofoils 101 - seems to manage this quite well.

What I had in mind is that for a novice or casual sailor, another arrangement may be easier to use overall, like a wing sail, for example. I have a few ideas I will share but also I can test out with models. I do hope the wing sail is alive and well. Yesterday out on my trivial beach kayak run I was blown ashore at one point, without any kind of sail, a little movement is all I need for now.

 

[gonzo]

If you are looking for easy, a marconi cat rig is hard to beat. Canting keels, wing sails and other high performance systems are difficult to use and expensive. They can be faster though.

 

[Milehog]

Simplicity is a desirable asset. It comes with more reasonable costs, more reliability, less time and money consuming maintenance, safety, ease of use, practicality, etc. etc. Canting components are at the other end of the spectrum.
H. sapiens have been sailing for millennia and the basics have been worked out.

 

[jehardiman]

First of all, why don't any sailboats or yachts I see have tilting masts? The sailboard has that, since it may not be possible to heel over a sailboard, but there is a patent for this, still. Heeling over is both exciting and a tradition at the same time, however my first ride in a catamaran (pictured) with one side higher than the other and the need to move from side to side with the onboard expert sailor did make me wonder if there was a better way.

EP1899215A1 - Sailboat with tilting mast - Google Patents https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1899215A1/en

Somewhat related is wing foiling is a new sport in the extreme that I have observed but have no personal experience with.

Beginner’s guide to wing foiling - Foiling Magazine https://www.thefoilingmagazine.com/beginners-guide-to-wing-foiling/

Sl, first understand that "sailing" is a generic term for a mode of propulsion and " a better way" is filled with qualifiers and needs. "Sailing" can be broken down into many distinct a different types (i.e. working sail, daysailing, racing, cruising, voyaging, etc.) and what could be good for one type is completely useless, and even dangerous and unnecessary, for others. So for the vast majority of sailing vessels tilting masts, catamaran hulls, canting keels, and foiling are just an unnecessary complication, expense, and danger.

As has been historically proven, sailing on the water has many ways to kill you quickly or slowly, but all unpleasantly. When I used to teach sailing in college, I would start out each first lesson with a breakdown of 10-20 ways you could get maimed or killed on a 470 in a little lake. Innovation is not being held back by development, but by the rigors of the sea and the forces of nature itself. The more you push the envelope away from the time tested center, the more you open yourself up to risks, either financial or physical.

However, if you go for the simplistic "fast is fun" mindset, there are many forms of sailing that are fast without the need for expensive and complicated geegaws. Since you are new to this, do some digging into indigenous Indo-Pacific small craft for what can be done for fun sailing without expensive racing toys. Milehog has it correct.

Simplicity is a desirable asset. It comes with more reasonable costs, more reliability, less time and money consuming maintenance, safety, ease of use, practicality, etc. etc. Canting components are at the other end of the spectrum.
H. sapiens have been sailing for millennia and the basics have been worked out.

 

[slboatdesing]

I would start out each first lesson with a breakdown of 10-20 ways you could get maimed or killed on a 470 in a little lake

The 470 looks a nicely proportioned boat. I am curious of the ways a person could get maimed and killed: in the interests of safety, I would like to know. I can think of only getting knocked on the head on the way down and then floating facedown in lifevest.

Is there a boating safety thread? I would like to explore this further.

There is this label on the kayak I use: (picture)

Of course there are other boats : I didn't think of that.

Searching as usual turned up some horrific results:

Father maimed in Lake Belton boating accident dies https://kdhnews.com/news/crime/father-maimed-in-lake-belton-boating-accident-dies/article_fbc904ec-6294-11e7-ac9a-2fe1d2eacaf7.html

Venezuelan billionaire's son, 31, is killed by a boat propeller while trying to save his girlfriend | Daily Mail Online https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10611975/Venezuelan-billionaires-son-31-killed-boat-propeller-trying-save-girlfriend.html

 

[slboatdesing]

In my part of the world, a square sail outrigger dugout canoe has been used as a traditional fishing craft. I heard something about sailing out at night and back in again at dawn (the winds change) . I once inspected these up close, wondered why they were so narrow. Now I know. Interesting shaped hull design and flat sides, waterproofing is..? Also crudely lashed poles to outrigger.

Traditional Sri Lanka Fishing Boat by Matthew Williams-ellis https://fineartamerica.com/featured/traditional-sri-lanka-fishing-boat-matthew-williams-ellis.html

There are some simpler catamarans out there, here are some:
Shop MiniCat Boats | Portable & Inflatable Mini Catamarans https://redbeardsailing.com/collections/minicat-boats

For what it is worth, here is an idea: smaller, multiple sails instead of a tall, tippy one. Do I have a choice as to tipping over, loosen the sails and slow down? If so, a single large sail is OK. I lose the aspect ratio, efficiency, higher up winds, and simplicity overall by going multi sail.

 

[jehardiman]

The 470 looks a nicely proportioned boat. I am curious of the ways a person could get maimed and killed: in the interests of safety, I would like to know. I can think of only getting knocked on the head on the way down and then floating facedown in lifevest.

Is there a boating safety thread? I would like to explore this further.

Being knocked unconscious out of the boat without a Type I lifejacket (1) is only one way to die. There is also getting caught up under an overturned boat in a Type I lifejacket (2), in the hiking straps (3), in the trapeze harness (4), being killed by the boom outright (5), cold water shock (6, the lake was in Michigan and we did ice boat), hypothermia (7), and just old plain bleed out (8) from other injuries. Injury and maiming can get even more creative; a parting stay or line can injure/sever digits (9), eyes (10), and skin (11). You can be slingshotted by the trapeze and injure head/face (12), break limbs (13), and if using foot straps snap your ankles (14). You can go over the side and get cut by a bailer (15 and where my 6 inch scar comes from), have your fingers crushed by the CB (16), palms stripped of skin (17, always wear gloves) and the more common nail ripped off (18) and broken wrists/fingers from FOOSH (19, Fell On OutStretched Hands) in a capsize. And I haven't even mentioned the rules of the road and other boaters (20). These are not conjecture, all are "demonstrated capability" I have either experienced, seen, or read about in my 50+ years sailing small vessels. Boats with power, winches, and tackles have even more issues.

Like any physical endeavor, sailing can be dangerous; and the less margin in high performance systems, the more risk. I don't know if there is a specific safety thread; but those with many years on the water understand what is meant by "the general risk of the mariner".

 

[wet feet]

Just to deal with small,multiple sailsn top of the expense of buying multiple masts and associated rigging,there is the matter of balancing the rig and hull for handling under way.with a stronger wind,would one reef them all or lower some? tilting masts have been used occasionally but there is a lot of effort required to move them and it isn't something you would do for a short amount of time on one tack.Maybe for a voyage of several days in a region of steady winds or a long distance race in those areas.

 

[Howlandwoodworks]

Bare feet slip and fall.
I was hit by a cart in between the parking lot and the catwalk once. Didn't see that coming.
A large percentage of male sailors who go over board are found with their zipper down. I taught sailing and canoeing at a small women's college so I never brought that one up.

 

[CT249]

Tilting keels seem to work well. How about sailing catamarans? Is it possible to keep heel over angles to low ranges during an excursion (the catamaran I was on did this) but also maintain acceptable average speeds for a journey? I have read that sailboats can take roughly four times the time to get somewhere, I am not sure how this all figures in.

America's Cup Hydrofoils 101 - seems to manage this quite well.

What I had in mind is that for a novice or casual sailor, another arrangement may be easier to use overall, like a wing sail, for example. I have a few ideas I will share but also I can test out with models. I do hope the wing sail is alive and well. Yesterday out on my trivial beach kayak run I was blown ashore at one point, without any kind of sail, a little movement is all I need for now.

Tilting keel don't really work all that well for most people. They need an engine running, they are complicated and expensive.

Hydrofoils are also complicated and expensive, as are wing sails. Just look at the engineering involved in all these things; foils create huge point loads on structures, they are inherently very expensive because you need a narrow airfoil section that can support an entire craft and collisions, and if they cavitate you crash.

Wingsails are inherently complicated. They have larger surface areas than normal sails, so they are either very heavy, very fragile, very expensive or all three. They are complicated to get up and down, and can't be easily reduced in size.

Small multiple sails require multiple sets of handling gear; each requires handling, normally; and as you noted they tend to be aerodynamically innefficient.

Put it this way - either most sailors are brain-dead ******, or the boats they choose are well suited to their normal uses. If wing sails, foils etc worked easily and fulfilled a need, they would be more popular. They are not, because they do not.

If we are going to look at the issues logically then we cannot assume the average user is conservative, stupid or anything else, since (apart from circular logic) there is no evidence to that effect. What most people want is things like challenge, simplicity, economy, convenienence and sensation, in varying amounts.

 

[slboatdesing]

Bare feet slip and fall.
I was hit by a cart in between the parking lot and the catwalk once. Didn't see that coming.
A large percentage of male sailors who go over board are found with their zipper down. I taught sailing and canoeing at a small women's college so I never brought that one up.

How to avoid this, I you mean they fell in while trying to use the river as a the toilet? Fish do that after all.

Tilting keel don't really work all that well for most people. They need an engine running, they are complicated and expensive.

Hydrofoils are also complicated and expensive, as are wing sails. Just look at the engineering involved in all these things; foils create huge point loads on structures, they are inherently very expensive because you need a narrow airfoil section that can support an entire craft and collisions, and if they cavitate you crash.

Wingsails are inherently complicated. They have larger surface areas than normal sails, so they are either very heavy, very fragile, very expensive or all three. They are complicated to get up and down, and can't be easily reduced in size.

Small multiple sails require multiple sets of handling gear; each requires handling, normally; and as you noted they tend to be aerodynamically innefficient.

Put it this way - either most sailors are brain-dead ******, or the boats they choose are well suited to their normal uses. If wing sails, foils etc worked easily and fulfilled a need, they would be more popular. They are not, because they do not.

If we are going to look at the issues logically then we cannot assume the average user is conservative, stupid or anything else, since (apart from circular logic) there is no evidence to that effect. What most people want is things like challenge, simplicity, economy, convenienence and sensation, in varying amounts.

I just want to start of experimenting and move on to the normal stuff. The Kayak downwind sail is it a good place to start? Or boardsailing?

 

[Howlandwoodworks]

slboatdesing,
Nothing like trapping out with a friend in steady air on a cat and becoming a large part of the equation. Or just two on the rail telling tall tales.
One of the thing I like about sailing the most is the learning curve seems to extend into ∞.