Revolutionary Portable Boat

Leo,
Nice to see you back around here. I back up your questions.

Vapera,
You should be more respectful with people disagreeing with you, specially if they are well renowned experts on the subject as Leo is. Is quite boring to find out there is still people in these Forums being agressive to others just because they do not get wowing with their 'brilliant' ideas.

I tried to give you a couple of 'bad reputation' points, but I made a mistake and make them positive ones. Anyhow I left you there my opinion on your post # 13, and my name. And here my public disagreement.

 

Hi Guillermo!
I don't claim to be an expert on this subject. I just can't understand Vapera's claim that his hull arrangement has minimal drag. There are no measurements, no scientific comparisons with other designs, just hand-waving.

But I have taken Vapera's advice and gone back to school

Leo.

 

Guillermo,

I only use the same communication philosophy applied to me. If you read all the previous posts of this thread you'll see that I treat people the same way I'm treated, whether they agree or not with me. I do this because I believe that in international foruns, since I don't know other countries cultures, the best way to know how a person likes to be treated is by the way he/she treats me. I'm also try to be as objective as possible to avoid misinterpretations.
This thread is intended to make a project known, it even has a "recipe" of the easiest way to build it, for a better analysis and judgement.
César

 

Leo Lazauskas,

Even though you did not address the post above to me, now I understood your doubt.
Based on practice experience, I noticed that the drag is minimal, because I paddle kayaks and also my vehicle and I noticed a minimal difference between them (considering similar dimensions).
If someone asks me if it drags less or more than a normal kayak (with similar dimensions), I will answer that it drags more, but the drag difference between them is minimal. But it is also important to analyse other aspects beyond performance like storage space, transport condition, maneuverability, attachments and number of users.
One of the objectives of my invention is to provide the possibility to a wider range of people to enjoy masses of water.

 

Hi Vapera, I have checked out the video and your website as well as reading postings and I as a keen paddler would rather purchase the "Easy Rider" take apart kayak even if the price would be very much higher for the hard shell one. See http://www.easyriderkayaks.com/take-a-part_kayaks.htm
This is not really a criticism of your concept which is good, but it is not sophisticated and any one with any paddling experience would expect better performance.
In the video there is no glide between strokes, a fair amount of lateral instability, and a fairly low speed even compared to one piece beamy heavy kayaks. I think that for your portable, lightweight boat concept that the main performance parameters should match at least the low end of the fixed boat market offering. If you can do this then you might be on to a winning concept.

 

Hi, Frosh
Thanks for the hint! The Easy Rider is fantastic, but it has nothing to do with my vehicle. The only resemblance is limited to the longitudinal segments. The Easy Rider is more to a cadilac and my vehicle is more to a buggy or an ATV.
The advantage of my vehicle is that it can be assembled in 5 seconds, weight around 6 kg (12 pounds) and it can be kept inside a car. It can be carried in a knapsack, on a motorcycle or a bike and have implementations similar to the Easy Rider. My vehicle is more suitable for sunny areas.
The prototype of the video you saw on the page has “pectoral fins”, because I made the front module too slim, to see the exact limits of performance and observe turbulence, displacement, drag, balance and maneuverability. You can even notice that the rear module has a "bucket", it is a pick-up because I wanted to see how far I could displace vertically the centers of balance and mass.
With a short budget, I used the philosophy of making the prototype big so I could start cutting it until I reached the optimal condition. I don’t have shots of that first model in optimal condition, because when I reached this condition, I decided to cover the styrofoam. So I put a layer of epoxy resin, but, due to cost, I had to chose acrylic resin (that melts styrofoam). I believed that the epoxy layer would be enough to protect the styrofoam from the abrasive power of the acrylic resin. Since where I live (the capital of Brazil), as strange as it might be, there was only one company (now there isn't any)selling this type of material, and it was a dishonest one, I had to dilute the acrylic resin with alcohol instead of styrene and the alcohol, I found out later, destroys the epoxy resin. Naturally, the acrylic resin “took care” of the stryfoam “problem”.
The other models I made, one looked awful, with a quite good navigation, but too heavy, because I had to make it building a polyurethane block, like surf boards. Since the polyurethane I used had a bad quality, the vehicle wasn't well finished.
I made all the prototypes in a 50 sq mt apartment, so you can imagine the happiness of me and my wife with all those “pleasant” smells of resins and other things like the “hairs” of fiber glass or the powder of sanded styrofoam.
I made 5 more models using methods, sometimes surreal, like, for example, applying a layer of silicon on taktel previously stitched on a sewing machine. Part of the silicon had been bought from that dishonest company, they sold me a worthless catalyzer, no need to say the “porridge” this turned into!
The model copied by bic is the only rigid that had a happy ending and is still “alive”, with a “decent” performance, but in my opinion it's the ugliest one. But by the other models, I can garantee that the difference in performance between my vehicle and a normal kayak with similar dimensions is so derisory that portability becames the main reason for making a choice for it. It is important to point out that a small kayak (a short one) doesn’t have great performance. The one in the video was 2,10m (around 7’) long. If I had build it a little longer, each module with approximately 1,5m (around 5’), its final length would be 3m (around 10’), which would give a quite better performance. My objective was to specially analyse portability, because I developed this project according to my limitations which are storage space and transport (and naturally money to buy something better!)
I still have the inflatable model, with a questionable design, but there was no choice, because I worked on the PVC sheets without a welding machine, I used glue. The design is similar to two usual inflatables attached longwise. It is the inflatable that can be seen on the page. The boston valves were a problem, so I made them with a PVC flange and used pieces of a inner tube as membranes to hold the air.
What I’m trying to say with all this is that in the country I live there isn’t any type of support to develop anything and I know that in the countries where most of you who post here live things are infinitely easier to be done. With that, I want to justify why until now I’m not producing an end product with final quality.
I have even developed a much smaller and lighter rotomolding machine that would be able to produce the vehicle and one of the reasons that I was able to develop this machine is because of the smaller modules of my vehicles - the diameter of the machine is reduced to half.
I’ve posted since the beginning that any person or company outside Brazil can manufacture this vehicle, I look forward to importing it, because I'm the only one that can sell it Brazil and importation costs are zillion times inferior to production ones. And, of course, with this potential 40 million people market, if I’m successfull, besides having several models of my vehicle, I’ll have an Easy Rider (with all its accessories), a Pakboat, a Virusboat, a Spirit 17... and a trailer to transport all these “people”.

 

Vapera

Hi again, actually I was thinking more of self 'rescue' in poor conditions rather than rescue of others! but on the rescue idea, your 'payload' would appear small because of the way the units are interlinked - Ok beach rescue may have a point but otherwise more a single person vehicle? Don't get me wrong I believe there is a use for your vessel, just that like many such vessels the use is ....er...limited (so that don't make it useless, just beware of the limitations)

 

Hi Vapera, you supplied a lot of detail of the difficulties of sourcing decent boat building materials in Brazil and we all sympathize as in Australia, USA, and Great Britain where most forum members reside, the only limitation to superb and reliable materials is cost. Having said that, there are still some very relevant points to be made.
(1) I do not think that you have any real idea of your target market. Just because it might cost only $100 and fit in the car, you cant assume that maybe 10% of the population would buy one. The majority of the general population would not have any interest in a paddling or rowing boat or even any boat, irrespective of the attractive price. As you are not intending to convert users of existing high quality boating products, you will be aiming largely at first time boat buyers. This is a very difficult market to convert and impossible to estimate in advance.
(2) To sell overseas the limitations of materials to make quality prototypes is not going to impress prospective buyers or manufacturers (nor gain any sympathy) so that you will have to aim at somehow doing it as well as BIC did when you are ready to start marketing.
(3) If a kayak can't perform properly at a length of under 3m or with any gap between the halves then this problem needs to be solved as a higher priority than very easy portability.
You might not like my suggestions, but I have been in selling and marketing (not in boats) for 30 years in which time you start to get insight into the psychology of the buying public.
Best of luck whichever way you go.

 

Hi Frosh

Could not have said that better myself.

Been in marketing although I'm back in my trade now, less headaches.

Marketing is the most important aspect of any invention, because if nobody wants to buy it, you have completely wasted your time.

Your right it doesn't matter how cheap a product is, for example I have 2 kayaks, an inflatable and a sit in. My wife would not buy a kayak if it was offered to her for 50 cents.

It is very hard to invent a market, it is better to get a market share of an existing market.

What does this kayak have that would attract anyone who is already a kayak user?

I don't want to discourage you Vapera but I think it would be wise to look seriously at marketing other than to say, people would buy it because it's cheap.

Although in Victor Kiam's autobiography he said he thought velcro was a stupid idea and turned up the opertunity to market it. Nobody really knows the results of selling a product, but I think it is better to have a plan.

And Brazil looks like a place to party. Who needs a kayak to party?

 

If I have understood, this product is not intended primarily to kayak users but as an inexpensive craft that will permit, you and the kids, to play at the beach or nearby shores. It is more a toy than a real boat.

Imagine that the "thing" can be sold by USD$50. It would not be a proper kayak, but it would be a "thing" that kids could buy at the beach to have fun, to paddle and explore the nearby shore or get tanned over the water....that kind of thing.

If it can be produced cheap enough I believe that there is a market for it...but not the same as the one for serious Kayak users.

Claims that it will be possible to produce a cheap craft, like that, and that its performance would only be marginally worse than the one of a real Kayak, seems to me vastly exaggerated, to say the least.

 

With your comment above in mind Vapera, in UK alone every year the rescue services are called out to rescue children (and adults!) from things called lilo's (floating airbeds) who drift off to sea and get into difficulties - some even get dead! It looks rather like your intention is to spring into this market - sell to the unwary and uninitiated, so we kill a few but at least we get the money off 'em first! Not quite the forthright upstanding citizen we first appeared are we?

This would indeed be a pity because I do believe there is a small need for your type of vessel, just not in the amount you would need to make a fortune! Remember any bad publicity (like the drowning of a young child) would instantly terminate your project! Not really a good way to go!

 

It looks to me that it is not the product that is to blame , I mean the Lilo's, but irresponsible parents who don't take care of their children, or worse, grown ups that are not able to take care of themselves.

 

Safewalrus,
I didn't say anything that you put on your last post. But I'll answer it anyway.
I believe that in UK as well as in Brazil every aquatic vehicle has to be sold with safety rules, which includes the need to use lifejacket and info about the limitations of the watercraft.
The accidents that you've mentioned, I've never heard of them happening in Brazil. I believe the sea currents in UK are really strong, that's why these accidentes maybe happen. But I also believe that it is the responsability of the person or the parents of who is entering the water and also of the safeguards, because they should alert people about this type of problem.
I don't prentend to enrich with others misery, if that was my aim I'd love the country I live.

Hi, Safewalrus
If I understood you right, it would be the rescue of a shipwrecked. In this case, what you said is fact, it is not appropriate, because it is a personal craft and a shipwrecked shouldn’t make much physical effort to avoid waist of energy. But it is interesting to have a support or “rescue” vehicle that fits in a knapsack (when inflatable) or that occupies a small space in a watercraft, because if the shipwreck happens in a situation where land becomes or is visible, it would be possible to reach it, even if this vehicle had to tow a safety raft (I don’t know if this is the correct name for this safety equipment) with the rest of the shipwrecked (in a situation like this it, would be important to align all the people in the safety raft with the towing vehicle to reduce the drag). A kayak can also do that.
The features of this vehicle could also make it usefull for military and rescue staff and as a support to bigger vessels.

 

I would like to apologyze with everyone but I take some time to write in English.