Rethinking the smallest boat circumnavigation

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by stonedpirate, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    I just keep reading these threads, even knowing they are pointless.

    Stoned has no idea what he is doing, and his SOR keeps changing, as does his ideas of how to cope with entirely ridiculous problems without ever addressing the real challenges something like this poses. He has no experience sailing, no experience in rough weather, no experience off shore, ect... And instead of trying to learn any of these things, he is hoping to stumble upon some magic bullet that will make this idea work.

    If he really intended to even try something like this, he would be buying a cheap laser, instead of trying to figure out if a system no one has ever used is a magic bullet for some as yet undiscovered problem.
     
  2. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    The kite driven boat is an interesting idea. I believe it has already been done.

    It does have the advantages you mentioned, but there are disadvantages as well.

    Such as what do you do in a storm?

    What if the wind is too weak to hold the kite up?

    Then you have to think about loss of the kite.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. Just saying it is no panacea. It has its own problems.

    Though it may cause you to live in a tilted world, a conventional rig also holds a boat steady against rolling. This is one reason I never sail directly down wind. I always want the wind on one side or the other to get that roll dampening effect.

    I once took a skydiver out on my boat, who thought sailing was too tame for him. I went up wind into four foot swells for about a mile or two, then turned directly down wind. The boat behaved like a mechanical bull.

    It wasn't long before he started getting a bit queasy. I put the boat onto a down wind tack and it soon settled down.

    I personally think a boat of that size should be disproportionately high sided to keep water off the deck and away from the hatches.

    I've seen pictures of Serge's boat. It seemed low sided, in proper proportion, if the boat were twice its size.

    A higher sided boat offers more windage, it is true, but it also offers more cubic feet of enclosed area and, perhaps, a greater range of stability.

    I don't think sides half the Beam in height are at all excessive.

    Sven Yervin has a lot of experience ventilating his tiny, sea going boats. Perhaps you could learn a thing or two from him.

    From him I got the idea of having a vent pipe extend into the boat far enough that its inside opening would be above the waterline, if the boat were floated upside down.

    I have thought of a few ideas myself, such as having the vents at differing heights and painting the higher one a dark color and the lower one a light color, to create a natural convection current.
     
  3. Nick.K
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    Nick.K Senior Member

    I'm curious what sea experience you have?...A little warm water surfing? Some dinghy day-sailing? Perhaps sleeping on an inflatable mattress in a swimming pool?
    Have you ever been wet and cold (I mean where you can't feel your hands and feet, you shiver uncontrollably and your brain struggles to think?)
    Try this for an experiment, dress in light cotton clothing, soak it with water (and keep it wet), stand inside an industrial fridge with an air-mover fan bolwing at you...and wait. When you have got to the numb and shivering stage (if you can stand it that long) try doing some really simple tasks like tying your laces for example. Now imagine your self strapped to your "chair" which has just rolled for the umpteenth time in heavy waves, your kite which is half shredded by the wind is waterlogged and the lines tangled around your keel (or neck?)...
     
  4. Nick.K
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    Nick.K Senior Member

    With so many posts about boat design, materials and rig etc etc you seem to be missing the real point. Someone with experience, will power, strength of character but above all more experience can achieve improbable feats. In your case the weakest link appears to be your self not what boat or rig you have. You can't learn survival at sea from reading books and dreaming!! Go off and get some sea time; as others have suggested, buy an existing small boat and learn to sail it for extended periods.
     
  5. stonedpirate
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    stonedpirate Senior Member

    My storm tactics on a sail boat was to take sails down over 25 knots. Same thing with kite. No kite over 25 knots or whatever number seems beyond its abilities in practice.

    Same as sail boat, no wind, no kite or sails.

    Same as sails, torn sail = new sail from sail inventory. Kites are light and roll up into a small space, much smaller than a sail so i can carry more.

    Big kite for light wind, small kite for strong wind, no kite for storms or doldrums.
     
  6. stonedpirate
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    stonedpirate Senior Member


    I started posting about this project over a year ago. The advice at that time was, buy a small boat and get experience. That is what i did, i bout an 18 foot tralier sailor and spent a winter on it.

    Taught myself to sail, by trial and error and a few youtube videos.

    As for heavy seas, i'll just have to wing it
     
  7. Nick.K
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    Nick.K Senior Member

    Your posts earlier about a southern ocean circumnavagation being a cheat are very revealing about the limited extent of you knowlege.
    An Australian winter???...warmer than an Irish summer
     
  8. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member holding true course

    The southern hemisphere is much harsher than the northern. Hotter summers and colder winters. Earths orbit is eliptical, not circular. When Australia is having winter because the earth is tilted, the earth is also at the farthest from the sun in it's orbit. A double whammy.
    When Australia is tilted toward the sun and having summer, it's also closest to the sun in our orbit. Double whammy again.
    South Africa and all other parts in southern hemisphere the same.
     
  9. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Stumble, you are under a false impression here. There isn't any SOR, because it takes some serious expertise to develop one for a project like this, which of course can't come from a sailor with a summer worth of adventure on an 18'er.

    Stoned, you need to go look at some kites. They're not small, nor do they deploy or recover easily, let alone stow. With out a vacuum bag to crush it down to a manageable size, they're huge. They're also not light weight. Weight is weight, per square meter, regardless of material.

    This is the whole point of establishing a SOR professionally. You just don't know what the possibilities are, nor how to address them within the realm of your desires. Every design is a difficult set of compromises. The more you ask of the design, the more difficult the decisions and compromises become. You have to "rob Peter to pay Paul" so to speak and this necessitates professional assistance, as we've been there and typically have several avenues of pursuit for each conflicting set of issues.

    It can be done. Happy and Happy II (which I think is still in Australia) are examples of well thought out, minimal designs (Happy II is under 10'). I'm sure Jay still has the plans available for both. There are designers in your country that are quite capable of handling the multitude of issues with this sort of project. Conversely, you could take the necessary higher education and design it yourself, though this learning session will take a couple of years, minimum. The cost of this education will rival the price of the design, so it's cost effectiveness isn't as wholesome as you'd think, particularity with your sailing experience level.
     
  10. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member holding true course

    Doesn't Australias southern coast get rough?
     
  11. Nick.K
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    Nick.K Senior Member

    Hotter summers yes, colder winters no.
    This year (in Ireland) has been a mild winter, but last winter we had more than a month below freezing with many nights around minus five. In England just last week there were temperatures of minus ten. My Brother lives in Perth and the coldest it gets there is about plus 5, I think the coldest ever recorded is zero. True, I don't know about other areas in Australia.
     
  12. Nick.K
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    Nick.K Senior Member

    Stoned...
    Take a long look at this video to see what ocean waves can look like
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyd2h62XXIE
    To put the scale in perspective it would be like looking at the waves from a six or seven storey high building (I am sure Barnacle can be more specific)
     
  13. viking north
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    viking north VINLAND

    Yo--Can't say I did the same but after 46 years of bike riding and about the same on the ocean in small craft, I can't honestly say which has exposed me to the greatest cold. My coldest bike ride was Gorum, New York to Halifax, N.S. in Sept. My warmest Bike ride was a return trip across NFLD. in July-some 900miles in Jeans and a tee shirt. Same bike in both cases. My coldest boat trip was along the south west coast of NFLD in June. My warmest was Portland , MA to Yarmouth NS. in Sept. StonedPirate, The point here "Average Conditions" mean poop when you are 500 to 1000 miles from land strapped in a chair on a surfboard. I.E. the importance of protection from the elements regardless of how small and stifling that might be. It's better to be curled up in a 4x4 box than drenched strapped in a chair. While the "Ulysees Factor" is possibly the driving force--common sense and planning were never weaknesses with Scott or Mallory.It never altered the end result. Weaknesses in both and the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Stick with your first vision of a cabin to crawl into.
     
  14. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member holding true course

    DITTO: People die of exposure.
     

  15. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member holding true course

    I don't think the huge storm seas are a problem for a 10 footer if it seals up WT well. The period is great, the slope rather gentle, and he'd ride up and down like the floating gulls and albatross do. The far more common 6 to 10 ft seas are going to make life miserable and incessantly wet for a 10 ft boat.
    The really dangerous seas for a tiny vessel are wind over current making steep breaking seas. He'll be rolled over and over like in a polishing tumbler.:confused::rolleyes:
     
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