Rebuilding a 14 foot 1960s or 1970s Pigeon Marine fiberglass runabout...

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Matatout, May 10, 2022.

  1. Matatout
    Joined: May 2022
    Posts: 20
    Likes: 2, Points: 3
    Location: Montreal

    Matatout Junior Member

    I got a 14 foot 1960s maybe 70s Pigeon Marine Inc made in Montreal Quebec. PXL_20220429_165025917.jpg
    The wood was rotten. And it's now gone... Almost... Tabarnack I've been using all the scrapping, cutting, rotating, grinding tools I got and I even tried a few non tools...
    I'm pouring water now everyday with sugar to try to rot the rest of it... is there a better way?
    The hull is solid, a few scratches and damage from a bad trailer support. The stringers were made with what looks to be pine 2x3 on its side, with 2 areas not covered by glass where ribs were notched in. But the ribs were gone, as in only parts of the outlines on the hull are barely visible and only one stringer was still in enough shape to recognize it as such... It is how I know the notched part... There's a hole from that space going in a box with another hole in the transom. I'm guessing the wood was screwed together and dropped in the hull, then they just glassed the stringers between the ribs, 1/2 inch Ply was screwed on top, then a few layers of glass, cheap carpet and some back to back seats.
    The carpet was gone, except behind the control box. No seats, the windshield is badly broken. I removed an ugly white steering wheel with now illegal cables.
    So... A blank page or in my case a blank hull...
    The boat was badly designed yet it survived well over 30 years of Quebec winters on a trailer... It is my first boat/project and maybe I paid a little too much for it, but it came with a homemade light trailer that handles very well even at highway speeds. Also a 40 HP 2 cycle Johnson that should run, a couple of deep cycle batteries, a nice fuel tank and the old lights and metal stuff in a box...
    I'm still looking for a nicer hull, now that I have a trailer I can hunt the; no motor, no trailer section of the classifieds...
    But I'm curious to see if I can make a nice, solid and good looking boat out of this pile of crap... I want to test a few concepts and diy construction ideas, I think I'm good and that's a good start.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2022
  2. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 5,896
    Likes: 1,165, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    Stop adding sugar water unless you've got 15 years.

    picture of the inside please

    hull made of ?
     
  3. Matatout
    Joined: May 2022
    Posts: 20
    Likes: 2, Points: 3
    Location: Montreal

    Matatout Junior Member

    Hull made of fiberglass?
    In Quebec we say fibre de verre...
     

    Attached Files:

  4. portacruise
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 1,304
    Likes: 111, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 218
    Location: USA

    portacruise Senior Member

    Stump Remover containing potassium nitrate is supposed to rot out wood in a couple of months, and I don't think it affects fiberglass structurally, but it might bleach the surface? It can be tested full strength on a small sample of the fiberglass material before and compared with a piece of the original to see if it weakens anything.

    Ps. Will you be removing the fiberglassing around the wooden struts and other wooden parts, or leaving it there to provide the necessary structural support, if that is possible?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  5. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,668
    Likes: 992, Points: 113, Legacy Rep: 37
    Location: Barbados

    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Welcome to the forum Matatout.
    Your 'pile of crap' seems to have quite a nice hull shape really - it is just a case of replacing all the wooden bits now, and finding a new wind screen.
    Yes, easier said than done, but it is do-able, if you do have an emotional attachment of sorts to the boat.
    Maybe you just have to bite the bullet (or the fibreglass) and cut out all the 'crap' rather than trying to 'rot' it out.
    Make sure you have some extra supports around the hull though, to reduce the chance of the hull twisting / warping when it becomes a bare shell.

    If you do not have an emotional attachment, then you could work up an estimate of the cost of the materials required, along with the number of hours that you will need to do the work, and multiply these hours by a reasonable amount of $$'s to pay for your time - add everything up and then use this amount of $$'s to buy a boat to go boating with, especially as summer is on the way.
     
    DogCavalry likes this.
  6. Matatout
    Joined: May 2022
    Posts: 20
    Likes: 2, Points: 3
    Location: Montreal

    Matatout Junior Member

    The left over wood is the bottom of the transom PXL_20220501_195839784.jpg
    Ive cut the inside of the stringers and the wood almost came out on its own...
    PXL_20220501_174221458.jpg
    Here you can see my hand with a fiberglass cut covered with rot,
    (don't worry I got all my vaccines ;)
    hovering over the cutout side and in front of what's left standing, the outside and top of the sheath of glass holding the stringers in place, with the shop vac tube behind.
    OH... I think I know what they did... The wood was mostly there to support the floor with the glass attaching it to the hull but the wood was not touching the hull untill it got wet, I see a sheath of roving that looks like it's been pulled up by the plywood before it set... the plywood was not flat but it had a small torque, and that's why the floor connects higher on the right... Ok enough Sherlocking my boat where was I?
    About the extra support... I didn't and I think its actually lifted... The wood was so weak and heavy... The boat is kind of floating on the trailer... Not touching both supports I have to step in the shell for it to widen again...
    I've added a ratchet strap around the middle, but it's more to help me get in and out of the shell softly. I'm not sure it needs support, anyway where and how? I'm constantly moving the trailer around... I hope/think it was made from the thicker the better period of fiberglass... The top of the boat "insert better word" is also thick and solid with just some wood there for accessories backing and some weird bees nest looking spray foam crap at the bow... next to a few wasps nest... Pictures to come...
    Now... I think we will all agree that the way it was built was crap, I'm not gonna replace the stringers to fail again. So... No stringers no ribs, just cheap but very closed cell isolation foam cut in strips, standing up in a sandwich of foam mat foam mat maybe some 1/2 inch Ply "merisier baltique" I realize a drawing will explain this better but not on my mobile so latter I'll come and edit this here... Basically I want to fill all the empty not useful space under the floor with foam and mat and ply with the floor of 1/2 ply on top then more glass on top of that so no more air = no more moisture, no more problems for another 30 years...
    Wondering here if and how to "wrap my ply" all around in fiberglass before placing it in the boat...
    I would also like to make seats in 1/2 ply glassed on all sides, and then drop a vynil & padding covered shapes for comfort and looks removable in winter, this would mean absolument aucun trou, no pénétration of the floating part and no space for water to come in...
    The windscreen... I learned that it's not heat molded, it's just pushed in the frame and attached to the deck to keep its curve made with uv treated 1/8 polycarbonate... I might try a few ideas with cad later... Cardboard assisted design...
    And for the emotional... Yea it's a locally built boat but that was just a bonus on the purchase... I know it's more a way to add to my know-how list of knowledge...
    And a thing made always gives you more satisfaction then a good thing paid.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  7. kapnD
    Joined: Jan 2003
    Posts: 976
    Likes: 210, Points: 43, Legacy Rep: 40
    Location: hawaii, usa

    kapnD Senior Member

    The transom pic looks like you cut the outside glass off of it?
    It’s usually rebuilt from the inside, far less finishing work to do that way, and the integrity of the shell remains undisturbed.
    It’s not a large boat, so a short time on a heavy grinder will give you a clean slate to start over.
    I’d Suggest that you should remove all wood and tabbing down to bare hull.
    Foaming in the floor without stringers would be a mistake. A single stringer down the center would probably do.
     
  8. kapnD
    Joined: Jan 2003
    Posts: 976
    Likes: 210, Points: 43, Legacy Rep: 40
    Location: hawaii, usa

    kapnD Senior Member

    Edit:
    The original shape of the hull needs to be retained. Ifyour weight is causing distortion, you should probably get it off the trailer and jig it up firmly before glassing anything
     
  9. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 5,896
    Likes: 1,165, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    Use a mechanical device to remove the wood. An oscillating tool and chisel.

    add some pics of the work area from firther back

    hull needs spanner to maintain width and support from underneath to support load from you

    cutting the inside is the best way, but give us lotsa pics and we can advise repair methods
     
  10. Matatout
    Joined: May 2022
    Posts: 20
    Likes: 2, Points: 3
    Location: Montreal

    Matatout Junior Member

    Thank you for your interest.

    Outside vs inside of transom...
    The inside is full of stuff... The upper shell (better word?) Is very thick and holding the walls straight... PXL_20220501_161455772.TS_exported_13234_1652323558602.jpg
    So I decided to go the easy way and cut the outside...
    What's the tabbing? If you meant the left over glass that was holding the stringers, I don't know but not yet...

    I'm leaving it for now, because it is THE structural support for the hull... I've put an old piece of 1/2 ply sitting on the left over glass while I clean and prepare the inside...
    Love to see that I'm not that crazy ;)
    Here's my idea... PXL_20220512_024006330.jpg
    Maybe I should use crazy glue?
     
  11. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 5,896
    Likes: 1,165, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    The upper shell is more commonly referred to as the cap.

    The outside is the hard way...generally.

    Give us a picture of the transom outside as cutaway. It would be the first thing I'd try to repair.

    The inside. Good that you left the old sole edges. That can be used as a cleat for the new sole.

    The old stringer moulds...I'd be tempted to leave them in...if they are not super weak..how? Well, the old wood seems like u want gone, so, with a carbide blade and oscillating tool or some other means like a die grinder with a diamond, etc, cut the top of the stringer tabbing off, remove the rotten stuff. It looks like 1.5" wide. Buy some roseburg marine ply 3/4" and cut it to fit and about 1/8" lower than the edges of the old sole. Bed the new stringers in thickened epoxy. Put a 1/2-3/4" marine plywood sole overtop.

    The boat needs flotation. Before putting down a sole, buy some float foam from Noahs in Toronto and foam the entire hull bottom. Usually guys do a calc and run some foam up high so the boat is pos buoyant with engines, and all gear.

    All for now, later.
     
  12. Matatout
    Joined: May 2022
    Posts: 20
    Likes: 2, Points: 3
    Location: Montreal

    Matatout Junior Member

    PXL_20220429_163838529.jpg PHOQUE I got it... Ok I will just cut 6 strips out of 2 inch thick Isofoam TM the length of the boat and keep my 3 pieces of 1/2 ply then I trim the foam following the ply with home made hot wire :/ PXL_20220429_184014243.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 12, 2022
  13. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 5,896
    Likes: 1,165, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    I don't know the properties of that foam, but expect you are using it for a glass form and then make the glass form strong enough to support the sole and not shear off the foam.
     
  14. Matatout
    Joined: May 2022
    Posts: 20
    Likes: 2, Points: 3
    Location: Montreal

    Matatout Junior Member

    The sole or the floor or even the lower deck... And the shear off sounds Scarry... If I'm making some foam, glass mat and plywood sandwich what kind of butter can I use so everything stays together? And I don't get any of that shear off thingy? I often see instructions calling to make it thick like mayo or ketchup... Could I fill the gaps with that and use some wet glass mat to help the whole thing bond together?
     

  15. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 5,896
    Likes: 1,165, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    I sincerely know nothing about the foam choice.

    if the foam is only a former for glass and epoxy; it doesn't matter

    but it sounds like you don't know

    give us a link to the datasheet for the foam, I looked and failed
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.