Realistic scantilings

Realistic scantlings

The beauty of 6011 is it's forgiveness when it comes to conditions , very important to backyard builders , who may not have ideal welding conditions. With 6011 one can make a hot puddle and blow any slag out of it. Nothing digs in like 6011 , or even comes close. Yes it takes a lot of learning, but there are enough unimportant tacking and welding to do to enable a first time builder to get the hang of it before doing any important welds. How does even a poor weld compare to a copper fastening in red cedar every few inches. This is an example of how grossy over strength small steel boats are , and how foollish nitpicking over welds are. For even the worst of welders, a pinhole on the outside would have to match perfectly a pinhole on the inside, then they would have to match pinholes in exactly the same position in several coats of epoxy , inside and out. Once the epoxy goes in a pinhole it becomes a rivet, impossible to remove, even by sandblasting.
Does that give any of you worried about your welds a bit more peace of mind?
A sister ship to what Alex had changed hands several times. Gary sold it when he ran into stock market investment problems, for $20,000, with far less work done on it than Alex's boat. Paul sold it , to build a huge origami boat, with more done on it, but the steel work by no means finished for $22,000. The last owner sold it to Rowland due to other financial difficulties, for a song ,as he had no interest in finishing her.
A desperation sale does not establish fair market value.
When new technolgy comes along, it would seem far wiser to grab what you can from it ,than to dig your heels in and oppose everything it has to offer. Many of the ideas I have developed can be used in any kind of boatbuilding, to great advantage, even for framed boats. It's not as if I have jealously guarded any trade secrets, or tried to monopolise them . I have shared everything I have learned ,freely, to try ease the burden of boatbuilders ,and kill the myth that only the rich can go cruising.
Some one said they are only aware of 25 of my boats. Did they check the entire west coast of North America? Did they check Europe? All of it"? Did they check the Pacific , including New Zealand and Australia? All of it?
Wow , that's a lot of travelling just to check out one of my claims. Did you do the same search to look for McNaughton designs? How do you fund such globe trotting? Cruisers would be interested.
Brent

 

Yeah, I did say that. It was based on my personal observations of the price asked for other unfinished steel boats and their eventual selling prices. Never saw Alex's boat - I'm in Australia - but at the time there was another Swain 36' bilge keeler for sale in the South Pacific for around $35K USD IIRC. I basically value unfinished hulls by taking as a starting point what I have to pay for a boat of the same design in the water & ready to sail, then subtracting all the pieces (and the cost) of the bits that the unfinished boat needs to have added from the purchase price of the finished boat. You then get an idea of how much you need to spend to finish the bare hull. If the total is a lot more than you can just go & buy one for, why bother? The actual value of a hull is what you can sell it for, NOT what it cost you to get it to a particular stage. That's why I said the value may well be equal to scrap. I got offered a 30' single chine hull for free a year or so back and decided it was still too expensive by the time I costed in relocation expenses.

However, I worked with deep ocean ships for most of my career so am totally cynical about marine costs.

As to other stuff on this and the origami site, my 2c.

Qualified engineer friend of mine was staying at my place on the w/end. I've got Brent's book, Tom Colvin's books, George Buehler's book and Gil Klingels. My friend spent a few hours browsing them all. His comments were that compared to the others, Brent's was a poorly reproduced pamphlet. That is also my opinion; there's a lot of good information there but there's also a lot of opinionated ranting without any numerical backing. I really don't think Brent can explain a lot of things simply because he doesn't have the education to understand the concepts.

Brent's boats do seem to sail well. However, it's pretty obvious that he doesn't really know why, because he can't explain it to anyone with any engineering background, in a manner which makes sense. Also, what he has is ONE design with 4 variants. Compared to Tom Colvin, I think Tom has over 200 designs and many more variants. George Buehler similar. Both of them can explain why they made certain design decisions, and why in other circumstances those decisions would be different. They're not dogmatic because they know that no single technique is universally applicable.

On strength, Tom once told me how he used a bulldozer to shove a slab sided barge sideways into the water without damage. Proves steel is strong.

My experience with steel ships and impacts is probably greater than most peoples' because I spent 11 years sailing on an icebreaker. We were ALLOWED to hit stuff. Truly massive plating AND deep heavy transverse frames. Yes, the underwater body shows some interesting bits - you can certainly see where the frames are. Nobody thinks it's a good idea to take them out and rely on the plating (over 40mm thick in places) though. So when it comes to a design where brute strength is of paramount importance, transverse framing is how it's done.

Another comment on strength/weight: Brent's 36' design displaces some 18K lbs IIRC. Tom's Witch stretched to 38' displaces 15K lbs; I have a set of plans. Tom's Gazelle, which Brent sneers at, displaces a bit over 18K lbs as designed and there have been over 700 built. Brent has to use 5mm plate to stop it buckling and his boat is STILL heavier than Tom's framed designs, and Tom's Gazelles have a lot more interior space.

Brent gives away no designs for free. Tom's book has the complete details on building a Pinky. George Buehler has plans with sufficient detail to build over a dozen of his designs.

Final point: Brent's designs aren't really frameless. The deck has at least as much stiffening long and transverse framing as any of Tom Colvin's designs and you have to add strong floors to keep the keel(s) and skeg from ripping off the hull plating. What Brent's boats are, in fact, is partially internally framed AFTER the hull is pulled together, piece by piece, and THEN you still have to add tabs etc all over the place to attach the interior. I really strongly doubt that there is any significant time saving, measured from delivery of steel to sailing off, in Brent's technique, but there certainly is a limit on the hull shapes you can build.

Only advantage I can see doing it Brent's way is that you can get a hull together pretty fast and get it weathertight earlier than a framed design.

Shrug. Pay your money & take your choice. I built a big shed so I don't need to worry about the weather.

I plan on this being my sole contribution (to use the term loosely) to this thread and that only because I sometimes hang out on the origami group, where we were asked to come over & give our opinions. I suspect I'll be even less popular there, now. Oh well. As I said, it seems that Brent's designs do sail well, and I've seriously considered building a 36' bilge keeler. On balance, though, I think I'll build a Colvin Witch. With frames

Peter Wiley

 

But nothing is keeping you from posting in other threads, right?
Although I can't speak on behalf of others, I have to say that your "levelheadedness" (real word?) and the way you argue your case is something people here will welcome – this coming from a tosser who sometimes comes across rather harshly.

Anyway, I think you should stay. And thank you for a great post (of which I only quoted a smidgen).

 

Trust me, you wouldn't wan't to be out in a storm in a boat welded by me. Especially after a few years.

Hm, yes. If using strong enough materials, one can be an idjit, and it'll still most likely be strong enough. It's called "overbuilding", something I thought you hated with a vengeance?
The reality is, though, if you cock up too much, eventually it'll come back and bite you in the arse, and since you (as in a generic "you") didn't know where you cocked up too much, being an amateur, you have no idea where this might occur.

Personally? Not really.
The thing is, this is about more than being watertight. Or should I say semi-watertight, as epoxy isn't 100 percent waterproof. And especially not if a given hull flexes over time.

I never knew such a myth existed, to be honest. Although it would be nice to go cruising all loaded up with money.

Don't be daft. YOU are the one making the claim that more than 200 of your boats have been built and are cruising. Because of that, the burden of proof is on YOU, noone else.
I might go "I was on the moon yesterday, where I planted an apple tree". It is not your job, in that case, to go to the moon to disproof my claim. That burden lie solely on my.
Hence it's not our job to go traveling the entire world in order to disprove your (as all things point to: inflated) claims.

Cruisers and non-cruisers alike would be interested in you backing up your claims.

 

Personaly I would rather not have pinholes in the weld, 5 seconds with grinder and touchup weld is easy enough.
Petter I would defenantly argue on the point of speed between origami and framed first, years back I was going to build a 31 foot multichine and built a few frames, I'm a welder and it took me at least 8 hours to complete one frame, that was keeping it to the scribe lines after cutting out for chine bars ,stringers and limber notches. On my origami 26 I would guess at most I had about 20 hours doing what little framing there is, 3 across keel top , 2 above skeg , mast compression bridge and post.
I'm sure there is probably faster methods to building frames, I was following the methods from the book Boatbuilding with steel by Gilbert C. Klingel, very acurate but time consuming.
Tom
PS I am only talking about building hull only the rest we all know

 

I just shot blasted a steel Dix 43 and opened a few surface pin holes here and there. My welder immediately took a grinder and cut out the suspect areas and re-welded and blasted. These were small holes that would have easy being filled and covered by the epoxy primer. But one does not built a boat that way....

As for faster building other than framed boats; I said it many times before and say again. I had put a complete v/d Stadt 34ft frameless hull & deck together, welded and shot blasted and primed painted in 18 working days - no weekends. And I had done it twice more within 3 days time difference each.
Actually, the deck took twice as long as the hull to put together - so why bother with origami method:?:

 

You are highly skilled professional, so indeed, customer rightfully expects highest quality welding from you.

Brent wasn't advocating sloppy workmanship. He talked about realities of amateur / semi skilled welding. Every designer who is working for amateurs must keep in mind all limitations that lack of experience, professional equipment and facilities brings. It is possible to build perfectly serviceable vessels even with all these limitations.

Is the making of the building base included in this time? Did you cut all parts by the hand or did you have a pre-cut kit? Did you have access to the lifting machinery or did you lift / move all parts manually?

 

Realistic scantlings

Define "proof". What would you consider proof.Do you insist that I round up hundreds of boats from around the world and decree that they must all be in one spot so that your highness can obseve them? Man What an ego!
I've built three dozen origami boats . A friend has built more than I have . Another friend built about a dozen.Many other friends have built their own.Plans have been sent worldwide, and I've seen photos of them being built.
What I am saying is amateurs should not be too paranoid about their welding. As mentioned here, it is easy to grind out any doubtful spots and do it again, as many times as it takes to make the amateur feel comfortable with it. Sandblasting is a good time to do that.
How many people did you have building the Van de Stadt? What sort of equipment and jig did you have set up before beginning? Was it done in a backyard with minimal tools?Did you layout and cut your own plate with a torch or plasma?
To put the decks on a 36 footer takes me about 8 hours starting from scratch, working with one other person ,and no overhead lifts ,etc. If it takes you any longer, then it's obviously time you learned my methods, instead of criticising what you know nothing about. I don't keep it a trade secret.Stop looking a gift horse in the mouth.
Origami construction means having 1/7th the amount of chine seam to cut , grind, fit and weld, compared to a Van de Stadt, and no jig to build. It eliminates the visible chines above the waterline, making the hull hard to distinguish from a round bilged hull when afloat.
I've put together a 36 footer , hull , decks , cabin , wheelhouse, keel , skeg,cockpit, and rudder in 7 days , working outside with one inexperienced helper , with only comealongs and hydralic jack , cutting my own plate with a torch, or plasma.
That's a fraction the time and expense of your Van de Stadt.
Hats of to Van de Stadt for taking steel boatbuilding out of the dark ages of imitation wooden boatbuilding. My proccess is the next evolutionary step.
Brent

 

Milan,

I'm on record for my feelings about pre-cut kits; I avoid them like the plaque...

As for the v/d Stadt 34 - was my first boat ever build professionally and the time frame includes the building of the building jig that only take a few hours to built.
At the time my only "lifting machine" so to speak was a home build crawl and I include some photos of this boat under construction at the time and a snap of the finished product.
As I just started out then, I was building outside in the dirt and rain, working out of an old bread van body as an office and store - just about the same problems an amateur will experience.

All plating was cut with my old trusted oxy-acetylene cutting torch, and for the speed a Stadt frameless builds, let me put it this way;
The Stadt 34 has 4 developed plates per side from centreline; thus 8 in total. To lay out these plates (develop from simple offsets) and cutting, joining takes about 1.5 days.
To lay all 8 of them into the former (jig) starting with the bottom two, then another etc and pulled together take about a days honest work with 3 helpers and there is your hull, simple as that

 

Switch to Propane for your cutting torch. It's fraction the price and you can get it filled on a weekend. Just need a different tip for it.
Laying out a 36 takes me 1.5 hours.
Hope the baby in a toples bar has a long memory.

 

Brent, looks like you are still in the dark ages. When I built my first v/d Stadt 34 frameless in 1989, she was plan No 314 - v/d Stadt gives nice identification plagues (to be mounted on the boat) with all the design criteria on it and plan number with their set of plans...Take note, numbered plans and the other two later had higher numbers.

As for the deck in 8 hours; there are decks and decks and decks. You choose. Since I, and remember, I am a very competent Qualified Boilermaker, can not do a proper deck in a few days, let alone 8 hours, meaning I do not know anything and must resolve to you methods, I have news for you. I rather have lunch with the devil himself.

Since you are so loud mouthed and free with you say upon others, I am coming down to your level and do what you so are so good at. Yes, you guessed correct, I'm gonna challenge you openly on this forum

We are all (mostly) tired of your rants about how good you are, how stupid and incompetent we are, and since you are such a capable boat builder, let alone boat designer, let us see your work. Plenty of space to publish photos.
Let us see how your 8 hour decks and 7 day boats looks like.
And in the spirit of this challenge I will put some of my dark age building method boats up, which incidentally, took just a little bit longer to built than yours relatively speaking, and see how they compare and let friend and foe decide.

And Brent, please do not fail us, this is your moment to shine. At last someone is prepared to take up a challenge with you, although not the demolition derby you prefer, but still a challenge.
Please, do not bore us with some other ranting and fairy tales or, I do not have photos, or no scanner, heck, even here in dark Africa we have digital cameras.

For starters, my first boat is already posted elsewhere above this and go have a look at metal boatbuilding section and select "Dix 43, getting there" for another boat Im building now. And I strongly suggest Brent, that you visit my webpage for some more of my work - they are all there, from 65ft down to 24ft and in between. Link below my name.

Your deal...

 

Welding remarks moved

Brent, first off thanks for the calm tone and well described remarks in the welding sub-thread on this topic- just above.

I'm moving over to Wynand's 'next door' thread to reply about the welding rod choice and will keep my welding replies there.

I'm addressing rod choice and welding application, cutting choices and a few other 'welding only' aspects.

I find it worthwhile to exchange remarks with the Brent who wrote the 6011 remarks, the entire first paragraph was a series of good points, evenly stated in my reading and supported with well and simply explained reasoning.

On the other hand, its is still somewhat frustrating to try and hold a discussion with 'the other Brent' who seems to forget the first guy whose reasoned remarks are more in the tone of polite exchange of ideas.

thanks for the very good points, I'll reply next door.

cheers,

 

Ah, yes, what an ego I carry around! The nerve of of me to even suggest that it is you, and only you, who carry the burden of proof

Seriously, grow the **** up, and understand that he who makes the claim, he, and only he, has the burden of proving what he claims to be the truth.

Yawn.
You're seriously beginning to bore me.

Point being? You're claiming that it doesn't matter how crap things are done, et you fail to recognise that even though steel are strong, that doesn't mean one can do whatever one feels like - including scaling blidnly.

Are ou seriously asking that we quantify and qualify that, all the while you get to make claims that that the old school method is all bollocks, and "your" method is the ****, the future and what have you?
You cannot be that daft.

Seriously, "your" method is not that new, secondly, you doing it by merely guessing, does not in any way make you or your products "gifted".
I'm seriously beggining to grow tired of having to keep saying the same things, al the while you continueing to be an ijit, ignorning even common sense. It makes me scared that someone that thickheaded sells stell boat plans to people, all the while relying on the strength of the steel.

Point being?

Good on ya. Who gives a flying **** by now? Up until now, all we have are unfounded claims - why the **** should we begin to believe you now?

Ah, yes, you're the saviour
Howsabout some analysis to back that up? Oh, that's right, even when you go to back something up, you just make claims - just like your 160-degrees vanishing stability. I seriously doubt that's true, just like I doubt most of what you say, simply based on your track record up until now. You have become a joke.

 

If I may just add another little bit of folly to these above comments.

Another poster on this web site, Mr Yan, decided to build himself a 36 foot NZ design. He asked me if i was interested in lofting for him his boat, yep, no worries.
I arrived at the yard in Hemmant (Brisbane) on the Saturday morning, early. We had a gander over the lines, I started lofting he was cutting with a gas torch, a great little French thing, rather small but very neat.
By 1600 that afternoon, we had the "whale skeleton" ready to be plated.
The keel was laid and set, all the sections were standing and tacked, the transom was developed and installed as was the stem piece. the boat framing was ready for the shell plating and the whole boat was finished by Mr Yan in 4 months, in the water sailed away.
You may or may not believe this, I do not care one bit, all I am doing is reporting on what I saw. The full framed vessel was completed by one person in that time after the very first day. That is because he wanted it to be so.

 

Correction, 170 degrees plus....