question is: are we sticking with Einstein?

If the data overturns a theory that says time travel is impossible because of the speed of light, you can't then use that old theory to say time travel is possible, because that old theory is no longer valid.

Personally, I think they will find problems in the data and the statistical analysis.
We just need to find a Richard Feynman who can quickly point out the anomaly as he did so brilliantly with the O-rings on the ill-fated space shuttle.

 

Hmmm, put in that way, it looks like that old logical game:

- The statement below is false.
- The statement above is true.​

 

Well I hope all this new info helps with calculating a more accurate lead between CE and CLR

 

The story about Feynman and the O rings goes like this. During the investigation as to the cause of the "accident", Feinman was invited to dinner at the home of General Donald Kutyna. After dinner they were exploreing Kutynas old car collection in the garage. There were two old carburetors on the work bench. They were from a 1974 Opel GT. Kutyna remarked that the damned things would leak in cold weather, and he reckoned that the O-rings were the prime cause.

Feynman tried in vain to give credit to the general for the O-ring thing. Kutyna would have none of it. It was Feynman, however, who presented the evidence, to the inquiry people, in nearly irrefutable fashion. He used a glass of ice water, a screwdriver, and a pair of pliers. Politics were in full bloom with all the major participants, so everyone was being very careful to cover their own and their agencys' ***. But apolitical Feynman was not to be encumbered by opinions. He was the consummate showman in addition to his genius. Politics be damned.

Lots of interesting episodal stuff about Feynman in the book; No Ordinary Genius, by Christopher Sykes. Parts of the book are hilarious too.

 

There are several of his lectures on Youtube. Great man!

The upshot, IIRC, is that some form of risk assessment had been made on the basis that the probability of failure of one O-ring was independent of the other O-ring. The risk of failure of both at the same time was actually quite likely in certain circumstances.

As to the CERN data, it is wonderful to see scientists openly presenting the anomaly for scrutiny. Now, if just need to get others (e.g. homeopathists, chiropracters, deists, alien abductees and other crackpots) to have their claims for miracle cures and invisible spirit friends assessed in an open forum

 

Wow! I never knew Feynman was involved in investigating the Challenger disaster. I'm embarrassed to say, I thought he was deceased.

We did all the Feynman lectures as undergraduates in my school as a supplement to our regular text books.

I remember the E&M lectures best. He really knew how to get you thinking...

A great teacher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feynman_Lectures_on_Physics

 

I stand corrected here. I have just learned that the speed of light is not measured but defined through the standard international definition of a meter. Precisely, 1 meter is fixed as the distance travelled by light in vacuum in 1/299792458 of a second. So the speed of light is by definition 299,792,458 m/s. Which means that my above hypotesis is out of question.

I admit that it makes me pretty happy, for the same reason Jim Lee has stated previously in the thread:

Cheers

 

Now if we only knew what a vacuum was ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unruh_effect

 

Well, one or the other, not both. That is, if there are things faster than light then either E=mc2 is wrong, or time travel is possible (actually, instead of saying that time travel is possible, it might be better to say that causality can go backwards in time).

E=mc2 is a consequence of the Lorenz Transformation which gives the relative velocity of two coordinate systems using a term involving a square root of v2-c2. If the Lorenz Transformation is true, then anything that goes faster than light has an imaginary component to its velocity.

So, if something is found that goes faster than light, that can mean one of two things: either the Lorenz Transformation is wrong (which would mean that E=mc2 is wrong) or relative velocities with an imaginary component are possible (which leads to an inversion of causality by a thought experiment that I can't recall).

I've read somewhere (no longer recall where...) that there is a third possibility: it could be that the Lorenz Transformation is true, that causality is always in the direction of time, and that objects can go faster than light, but in this case there must be some privileged, absolute reference frame in the universe, that is, some reference frame to measure time from.

 

I don't have a problem assuming they have carefully synchronized timing devices at the source and destination. What I wonder about is, how can they be so certain that the light and the neutrinos are both following precisely the same path? Neutrinos go in a straight line - with a microscopic nudge from gravity - and rarely interact with matter - whereas electromagnetic radiation requires an evacuated tunnel over 6 miles below mean ground level at mid-point to follow a straight path over that distance. I doubt the equipment was airborn at either end due to its weight.

Since they do not have such a tunnel, the path length difference must be far greater than the speed discrepancy measured, proportionally. So huge (comparatively) correction factors are being applied to calculate the 60 nS value, which are themselves based on a stack of assumptions related to path followed, effect of air etc.

Incidentally they haven't had proof of the mass of a neutrino for all that long . . .

 

This is a watershed event in scientific endeavour, IMO. Either Einstein got it wrong, or a whole heap of scientists have gone to press too early, despite any amount of careful re-checking of experimental data. Either way, 'trust' will be taking a hit.

 

Bounce it off the moon far a better measurement?

-jim lee

 

I hope instead that the faith in their honesty will increase. The fact that they have published this data and said "listen up folks, we were unable to find any flaws to this experiment and to the measurement system used. Here are the data, please see if you can come up with something that could explain what happened" is an act of extreme humbleness and honesty imho.
They could have said instead "****, we are throwing our scientific credibility out the window, let's just lock everything in the drawer and drop the key". They have made a very uncomfortable discovery and have decided to assume the responsability for their work by publishing it. Exactly the opposite to what a majority of people (and any politician) would do. If they were poker players, this would be equal to an "all-in".
They have deserved my respect for this behaviour alone, independently of what the future reviews of this experiment will reveal.
Cheers

 

I am not implying a lack of integrity, just saying that the trustworthiness of any scientific "proof" will be questionable if hundreds of scientists who have exhaustively checked, and re-checked, and employed the best resources available, find they have deluded themselves. We know that everything is only provisionally 'correct' in science pending a more complete explanation, but Einstein probably has an aura of authority unlike any other figure in scientific history, so if he's shown to be incorrect, the truth will appear very mercurial indeed. What scientific 'truth' would then appear to be of impeccable reliability ?

 

As I understand it, the 1 meter length has been redefined as the length light has traveled in 1/299792458 of a second. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre This means the speed of light is indeed a constant when measured in metres/s. So if I understand it correctly, your hypothesis will still work!
Should the speed of light have been measured wrongly all these years, the length of 1 metre is no longer the old metre as we have known it....

This therefore has huge implications for the boating industry. Your yacht of 12metres long may no longer be 12metres, but a mere 10 metres!!