Quant 28-foil assist keelboat / DSS

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Jun 10, 2011.

  1. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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    I suspect you are very wrong. Canting keels are proven technology used on almost all the fastest monohulls and on many cruiser/racers-just as predicted. What is a "recreational' boat: a Schock 40, an SK 2, a CQ 6, a mini 6.5?
    Funny you mention leaving an expensive raceboat(or is that not recreational?) in a marina slip-funny too that you mention DSS in the same breath: I guess you haven't seen how the first two DSS boats float when empty, have you? See Below. DSS has barely scratched the surface-all kinds of development is taking place fom very small to very large. I myself have designed a 14' DSS/Trapwing singlehanded dinghy with help from Hugh Welbourn, Eric Sponberg and others-and I'm not alone there are many people all over the world looking at the use of DSS on race boats, cruiser racers, dinghies and other "recreational" boats.
    When Mr. Suburbia gets a chance to sail on board a DSS boat and witness for himself the way the foil works, he'll lead the cheering for one of the hottest new performance and ride enhancing technologies ever introduced to monohull sailboats!

    Pictures: DSS 25 "BBB" and Quant 28 floating with foils clear of the water.
     

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  2. Wuzzi

    Wuzzi Previous Member

    So, how does DSS float clear of the water and not impinge cabin volume for the occupants? Can't have it both ways.

    Hair-splitting of the term, "recreational" aside. Canting keels have never been accepted as viable products for recreational sailing. The costs, structures, operation nuance and maintenance are deal breakers for weekend sailors. Take a stroll through a serious boat show and you will not see canting keel equipped craft, nor will the boat company sales people be presenting them as important elements of the boating experience for the typical consumer. The predicted rush to incorporate the technology has never taken place. Sailing has been in decline since well before the economic situation that grips a good deal of the globe and manufacturers weren't rushing out to install canting keels on their boats even then. Boat makers everywhere have had to tighten their belts and trim excess from their build cycles to remain profitable. Installing expensive and complicated machinery on board is not the answer when it comes to being able to survive in difficult times, nor do recreational sailors need the performance difference.

    DSS is in the same category of not needed accessories in the much broader and much larger recreational market. Bottom line is this: If you want to get to the heart of a recreational boater and his pocketbook, you install creature comforts that satisfy his wife. I can't help you with this one if you don't have a wife (do you?) but the ladies deem other aspects of boating to be far more important than the question of adding some small percentage of performance to the boat at significant expense to their budget.
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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    1) What cabin? You can clearly see that it doesn't impinge on cockpit room and floats clear of the water!
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    2) Drastic over-simplification with little relevance to DSS because:
    a.) DSS improves the performance,ride and handling of a boat it is used on if it is incorporated from the design stage on. That makes everybody that experiences it happy
    -
    b.) Small recreational daysailers could incorporate DSS to great advantage adding stability and improving the ride in tough conditions-again,with the potential to improve the type so much that men and women will enjoy daysailing together like never before,
    -
    c.) DSS does not require power to be effective on any boat so the application potential is much wider than canting keels.
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    d.) DSS allows for the use of "foil assist" with no increase in draft with "plug in" versions, versions that pivot like a centerboard(Quant 30), and the standard foil that slides athwartship with manual power.
    DSS is a new, hot technology that has wide applications on everything from racing dinghies, to daysailers, weekenders ,small sportboats, small cruising boats on up to the biggest sailboats around. And it's not just a performance increase it is a ride and handling improvement as well.
     
  4. sean9c
    Joined: Jan 2011
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    sean9c Senior Member

    Did you notice in the pic you included from the race when compared to your other pic of the 28 that it appears that either the DSS board got considerably longer or that they had all of the board to weather, so they weren't using the DSS, which is also interesting in that your last pic of BBB going upwind it also appeared that they had all of the board to weather. What's up with that? It works great as long as you keep it out of the water?
    Wuzzi is 100% correct, there is absolutely no place in a production boat for anything that increases to complexity or cost. Boatbuiders can't figure out how to sell boats now let alone adding something that makes them more expensive. Think about it, in the racing world, if you're doing a one design boat all the boats are the same, sure DSS might make them all a little faster but who cares, you all have the same thing and it'd sure make the boats more expensive to build. On a boat that handicap races, which includes most racer/cruisers, if your DSS proves to make the boat faster than it's rating indicates you're sure to get a rating or rule change to bring your handicap in line with your performance if not worse and it again makes the boat more expensive to build.
    DSS might work, it's an interesting intellectual exercise. But to what end? Maybe, if it works, it finds a home in a few one offs.
     
  5. Wuzzi

    Wuzzi Previous Member

    Ahhh, yes. No cabin present. Then that must be a racing boat and not a recreational pleasure craft, right? In fact, I have yet to see it used in a commercially successful recreational capacity that is universally accepted as an appropriate expense for recreational boats. How many years now since the big splash and still no penetration of the rec market?

    Here's how it will likely go on that front: Some racing vessels may find it appropriate and may incorporate the feature, if their customers create the demand. That remains to be seen.

    Recreational sailors will likely not find value in the feature because it involves significant extra attention while sailing and it adds a noteworthy cost to the final price of the boat when being delivered. When that cost is factored by the consumer who is comparing like vessels and the DSS equipped boat is always more expensive, the need for the feature becomes an anvil around the neck of the marketing department that is trying to make the sale. This is virtually identical as a problem that faced the canting keel proponents when trying to spread the gospel to the recreational boating community. Canting keels are a non-starter for rec boaters. So is the need for DSS for the same ownership segment.

    Doug, perhaps it would be good to address the issue that not every snazzy goodie developed for racing has commercial value to the typical recreational sailor?
     
  6. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Quant 28

    ====================
    1) Interesting that after all that has been posted about how DSS works andwhen it works that you ask the same question again! On the Quant, if you'll look real close you can see that most of the crew is in the boat or on the leeward wing. Now why would they be there?? Well, its because it's light air(read the race report). A general rule of thumb is if you don't need Righting Moment you don't need the foil. Posted already numerous times in different threads by me and quoting Hugh Welbourn.
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    2) Wuzzi(chris?) is dead wrong, in my humble opinion. No place in a production boat? Nonsense.

    Pix-Quant 28 with most of the crew on the lee side or in the boat in very light air. The foil is fully retracted as it serves no purpose when the RM it can develop is not needed.
     

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  7. sean9c
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    sean9c Senior Member

    So they won a fluky light air race. Luck?
     
  8. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Quant 28

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    You didn't read the race report by Michi? I'm shocked-shocked I tell you.
     
  9. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    Congratulations to Allianz-Suisse and Quant Boats for their win(s).

    Seems like conditions weren't optimal to take full advantage of the DSS technology, although one bright point is that it didn't seem to penalise the team by it's presence in conditions where it could have been a negative.

    It's kind of nice to see a development effort with the long financial legs needed to survive through the long period of high infant mortality that plagues most new designs. Most new ideas run out of money long before they actually can gain even a little respect in the marketplace.

    Much like most successful proof of concept efforts, Quant Boats may actually become an "instant" success in a couple more seasons after four or five year investment. That being said, there is a huge difference between successful racing proof of concept and actual profitable market success.

    I'm not so sure I subscribe to Mr. Lord's enthusiastic endorsement of DSS as a magic feature to bring success in every market category. I'm pretty certain it fits in the ego-rich "line honours"-hungry elite and moneyed group of buyers, but generally agree with Sean9c and Wuzzi regarding it being a non-starter in handicap racing.

    It will be interesting to review things in one year. I'll be pleasantly surprised if there are more than 3-4 new DSS hull designs splashed in that one year.

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    CutOnce
     
  10. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Quant 28 / DSS

    =====================
    No need to misquote me, "once". I never said or implied that DSS was "magic".
    It is a solid, proven technological advance in sailboat design with a very wide range of potential applications.
    Really? Seems like the majority of races so far have been "handicap racing" both for the Quant 28 and for Brace, Brace, Brace.
    3 or 4 ,huh? I'll remember you said that..........
     
  11. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    What's this then:


    For God's sake Doug, can't you remember what you wrote ten minutes ago? You get so lathered up that you just aren't rational. I COMPLIMENTED Quant, not criticized them for Christ's sake.

    One-off boats can ONLY RACE in handicap races. And they are racing with provisional ratings that have to be used until the boat has enough of a race record to actually know how it performs. If the Quant 28 consistently wins in handicap races against boats with proven ratings, they will just change the ratings on the Quant 28. You seem to fail to understand how handicap races work. It is ALWAYS a test of the people, not the boat if the ratings are right. This is why line honors is valued far less by racers than corrected time. One design racing isn't possible until enough hulls exist to make it worthwhile. Boats like the Quant 28 would be a much greater success if a one design fleet would emerge.

    Please feel free to remind me if more than 3 or four NEW DESIGNS (not hulls, read my post again and try to understand it) are introduced and on the water by next June 12th. It takes so long to finance, tool, build and start up a new design that I'm pretty sure you'll be wrong. Even if someone with limitless funds started today, I doubt they'd get more than one design on the water in a year. I can't see more than three or four organizations going after this particular market niche at once - it's already crowded and competitive.

    I don't know why you keep on starting these conflicts when people are making valid observations about a design you have absolutely no rights to or involvement in. I think the Quant Boat people are perfectly capable of responding themselves if anything I've said is offensive. Your faux outrage is getting tiring.

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    CutOnce
     
  12. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    --------------------------------
    You can count on it-my pleasure!

    Whats this, "once"?
     
  13. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Quant 28

    For part of the race, maybe but then:

    From Michi's account of the race above:

    "What came afterwards I will never forget, as it was the first time when the Quant 28 encountered the really tall lakeracers from Lake Geneva. Windspeed went up to a bit gusty 12 to maybe 15 kts or even more in some patches around us. (one D35 lost the rig)
    The Quant 28 started now to sail in one of her favorite modes. After the breeze really established over a big part of the lake, we started with our fast two sail reaching, directly to the mark at Rolle, always on the foil, speed varying a bit from 13 to 17 kts and not one second below 9 kts in holes.
    First, we quickly disappeared from the pack of the "normal" boats, catching up to the much faster and bigger ones in front of us.
    Then we passed the fully tricked up and new Psaros 33, the latest canter on the lake-just some boatlengths on leeward side!
    Then we passed our archrival "MisTfy",a modern Luthi 38 in full carbon and so on-till the mark in Rolle. There rounding with a well sailed 18 footer in front and the spectacular "Pi28" foiler behind us."
     
  14. Waylandsailor
    Joined: Dec 2011
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    Location: Wayland, MA

    Waylandsailor Waylandsailor

    I believe that the DSS foil will be a big advantage to cruising boats. The movement athwartships takes little power, where a canting keel requires significant power and a higher level of complexity and danger (If the keel falls off, the boat capsizes, where a broken foil just reduces the righting moment).

    When we sailed my Beneteau 49 from New York to the Chesapeake last fall, we had the usual 20 kt SW breeze. The ride was unpleasant with 4-5' swells and a lot of pounding as we beat to weather. A correctly placed foil (ahead of the center of fore & aft rotation) will lift the bow as well as increase the righting moment. This reduces the pounding and, even more important for comfort, reduces that annoying abrupt deceleration as the bow dives into the approaching waves.

    I would like to put a DSS foil into the Beneteau and have room under the sole to do so.

    Don Mitchell
     

  15. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    It would be really, really interesting if you did and reported on it. It takes a few brave pioneers to risk the resale value of their boats and people that don't care about race ratings to try this kind of application.

    Let us know if you can connect with Mr. Welborne and make this happen.

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    CutOnce
     
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