Propane injection for diesel.

Discussion in 'Diesel Engines' started by kistinie, Apr 22, 2009.

  1. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    Propane, butane...Hydrogene injection for diesel.

    I've just run my yanmar 1gm diesel with propane added as direct mix in the air inlet
    Just a few is needed

    Guess what happens ??? :

    It start better without smokes
    Run with an incredible torque, i would think increase much over 2x at low rev
    Runs very low speed.
    Exhaust cooled by water of the combustion
    Much less smokes
    :p

    Drawback

    :p ...it is a poison gas heavier than air, need to be careful :p
    the fitting of a thermocouple on exhaust closing gas feed should be compulsory
    Hydrogen injection is a serious competitor as energy for electrolyse can be sun or wind power
    Works green till no sun and no wind.


    kits can be found for hydrogen injection.
    One example:
    http://www.water4fuel4boats.com/5.html

    Is there butane, propane...possible add-on ?

    Diesel should be equipped for poly combustion of butane or propane, hydrogen, and of course oil.
    Then they become true universal motors with a rise in total efficiency measured over 50%
    The multi gas injector is the missing part of the puzzle.
     
  2. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Location: Brisbane

    Landlubber Senior Member

    Propane injection for diesels is certainly quite old technology, many shops in Australia have deen doing it for years, particularlly on small commercial trucks and 4WD.
     
  3. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    So if I fit an LPG tank and a small tap to feed gas into the intake I can feed in gas at a controlable rate and back off on the diesel. It would work like a cruise control.

    I could use this on long distance travel.
     
  4. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Location: Brisbane

    Landlubber Senior Member

    Frosty,

    I have a mate in Brisbane that used to do it full time for a living, I doubt that you simply stick a hose into the air intake..........PM me if you seriously would like to do something and I will give you his details.
     
  5. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Lubber,thats all you do with hydrogen although they dont use the word "stick' they say tap it into the intake --infact anywhere.


    Anyway Im needing a new truck that will have a warranty.
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    I was missing your comment on the 100% increased torque that was claimed!?;)
     
  7. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Location: Brisbane

    Landlubber Senior Member

    apex1,........somethings are best left unsaid.

    The truth is though, the engines do have more user feely friendly touchy power.
     
  8. pistnbroke
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Location: Noosa.Australia where god kissed the earth.

    pistnbroke I try

    Frostys grasp of technology again amazes me ..when you feed hydrogen/oxygen into the inlet you are modifiying the combustion and all you produce is a cleaner burn not great wodges of power ...when you feed in butane or propane you are using this as a fuel in partnership with the diesel being injected .. Yes old technology used for years on combined harvesters ....
     
  9. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Pistonbrokes inability to seperate one post from another amazes me.

    Please indicate where I said feeding hydrogen/ oxygen into the inlet manifold produces wodges of power?
     
  10. pistnbroke
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Location: Noosa.Australia where god kissed the earth.

    pistnbroke I try

    frosty read your posts ...you imply or state that feeding relatively small unregulated quantities of hydrogen/oxygen from a generator into the inlet is as easy or equates with feeding in propane .....if you put too much propane in you end up with a gas(petrol) engine with a compression ratio of 22:1 and such hot exhaust gas that you burn the valves......

    you also talk of cutting down the diesel ...err whats the fuel injection pump regulator do .....errr
     
  11. hartley
    Joined: Feb 2006
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    Location: australia

    hartley Junior Member

    If i recall correctly Benders bus lines in Geelong Vic were one of the first to use propane injection in their diesel buses ,the published accounts of this were all very positive ,this was at least 25 years ago ,so nothing new...
    cheers hartley
     
  12. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Pistonbroke --you read my post, it says " So If i" that is a question where I come from.

    And where did I say it gives wodges of power or that I feed hydrogen from a generator? what fking generator?
    Injection pump regulator? do you mean governor Duh!!!
     
  13. Jimbo1490
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    Diesel engines are 'fuel throttled' rather than 'air throttled' the way spark ignited engines are. That's why most diesels do not even have a throttle butterfly valve at all, and even those few that do simply use it to generate a small constant intake manifold vacuum.

    In order to 'throttle' the diesel engine down, the fuel control reduces the fuel flow, while monitoring RPM with a mechanical governor. So even at low speeds, a full air charge is entering the engine, unlike a spark ignited engine that intakes a rarefied air charge at low speeds due to the throttle plate being partly closed.

    So in the diesel engine, there is plenty of available air charge to burn an additional fuel charge, if one is made available. The diesel rarely burns a 'stoichiometric' charge except a full throttle. Most of the time the diesel is running 'lean'. So there may be gains in torque to be had by introducing additional fuel. But keep in mind that additional torque means RPM will increase, too. The fuel control will then respond by reducing the flow of (diesel) fuel to keep the RPM at the designed 'set point', which just gets you back to square one, except burning a different fuel.

    On the idea of burning hydrogen:

    If you think propane might be dangerous, then you'll need to steer well clear of hydrogen. It is explosive at the widest variety of mixtures with air of any known substance, all the way from ~1% to ~95%. The engine, fuel lines and hydrogen storage areas will have to be ventilated at all times when the gas is present, engine running or not. From a safety perspective, it's really not a practical fuel.

    Jimbo
     
  14. Jim_Hbar
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: Pac NW

    Jim_Hbar Junior Member

    Copied from mrsharkey.com

    LPG Fumigation
    Page One



    Lately, I've been getting quite a lot of e-mail from folks who are interested in the LPG Fumigation system that I have installed on the Pusher, so it makes some sense to have a page dedicated to that subject, with at least as much as I know about it, and some links to other resources.

    What it is...and why:

    Simply stated, Propane (LPG) Fumigation is the introduction of gaseous propane into the air intake of a diesel engine for the purposes of attaining more power, economy, or both. The parallel is often made between fumigation and using Nitrous Oxide on gasoline vehicles to achieve a power increase. This analogy is similar, although the properly implemented use of LPG on a diesel engine will actually result in a better-running engine without the possible damaging effects that N2O has on gas motors.

    Exhaust emissions are reduced as a result, with lower quantities of unburned hydrocarbons and fewer particulates (smoke). LPG fumigation will even clean up the odor of diesel fuel in the exhaust, making the smell from the tailpipe of an engine utilizing it much less objectionable.

    How it works:

    Introducing LPG gas into the combustion air intake of a diesel engine acts as an accelerant, promoting the even burning of the diesel fuel, and more complete combustion, resulting in more power being produced. Many web pages and forum posts will call LPG a "catalyst" but this is not correct, as LPG creates no change in the molecular makeup of either the air or the diesel fuel.

    Propane by itself resists self-ignition inside a diesel-fuel compression-ignition engine due to it's high flash point and narrow fuel-to-air ratio. During the compression stroke, the air/LPG mixture is compressed and the temperature is raised to about 400°C, not enough to ignite the LPG, which has an ignition temperature of about 500°C. In the small concentrations that LPG fumigation uses, the LPG mixture is not rich enough to be overly flammable and is more difficult to ignite. When the diesel fuel is atomized into the cylinder under high pressure, it immediately self-ignites (diesel ignites at about 385°C.), and causes the LPG to burn as well. Since the LPG is in mixture with the air, the flame front from the diesel spreads more quickly, and more completely, including igniting the air/fuel mixture which is in contact with the cylinder walls, which are cool in comparison to the super-heated air inside the combustion chamber. Much of the cleaner burning of the fuel is attributed to this ignition against the "cooler" components of the engine, and accounts for raising the percentage of combustion from a typical 75% for a well-tuned diesel engine running on pure diesel fuel alone, to 85-90% with the addition of LPG. Obviously, this more complete combustion also gives a nice boost in power, with an accompanying increase in fuel economy and reduction of pollutants.

    What to Expect:

    OK, here's where we have to draw a distinction between engine types. Normally-aspirated engines require different systems to introduce the gas than do turbocharged engines. The results are different as well.

    Normally-aspirated (N/A) engines will realize only a modest gain in power by the use of LPG gas. Displacing 0.5% of the intake air with LPG will result in a small power increase, perhaps 5-8%. Nearly no increase in power will be noted at full throttle, assuming that your injection pump is correctly adjusted already. Attempting to provide more gas to the engine will not increase performance, and will in fact lead to a condition not unlike pre-ignition in a gasoline engine. This has been attributed to excessive peak pressure inside the combustion chamber, and may have a lot to do with the fact that most N/A engines are also IDI (Indirect Injection), which means that the diesel fuel is not injected directly into the combustion cylinder, but instead enters a "swirl chamber" where ignition takes place. The flame front then shoots out of the swirl chamber into the combustion chamber, where it combines with the air (and LPG) to force the piston down in a power stroke. Apparently, these engines have a problem in that the flame front exiting the swirl chamber ignites the LPG/air mixture, all of which burns instantly instead of in a metered, controlled manner as it would during the normal diesel injection window.

    I have had satisfactory results on my VW 1.6 N/A engine when adding LPG at a rate of 8-10% of the BTU rating of the diesel the engine is using. It may be possible to turn the fuel up, but I do know for sure that too much fuel does not increase power, and causes the engine to make very unhappy noises.
    It's worth noting that if you experience a big increase in power on a naturally-aspirated diesel engine after installing an LPG fumigation system, then you should go back and check to see that your injection pump was adjusted to provide a nearly stoicheometric air-to-fuel ratio at maximum throttle without the LPG turned on. It's possible that the significant power boost you are seeing is due to the engine now being adequately fueled for the first time. The additional BTU content of the LPG is simply being substituted for the diesel fuel that you haven't been injecting all along.

    Turbocharged diesel engines are able to realize a significant increase in power by using LPG fumigation. While the usual suggested increase is considered to be approximately 20%, by careful management of the gas introduction, power gains of up to 40% are possible. My understanding is that it is a very fine line between lots of extra power and a dose of LPG that will render an engine scrap metal in a hurry, so consider carefully before you decide to "turn it up".

    Turbo engines are by design blessed with a lean air-to-fuel ratio, and can be fed concentrations of LPG up to about 6-8% of the intake air volume. TDI (Turbo Direct Injection) engines have shown dramatic power increases when properly fumigated with LPG, combined with an "Upsolute" chip, or computer engine management upgrade. (Of course, these modifications will void any manufacturers warranties...)

    continued on that site......
     

  15. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: Adriatic sea

    CDK retired engineer

    Instead of propane you could inject anything combustible, also gasoline.
    The idea is that the ignition caused by compressing an air-diesel mixture will also ignite whatever else is present. It could be useful for an underpowered craft to get it over the hump and achieve planing speed. A prolonged use will probably ruin the engine.
     
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