Problem with Documented vessel and Campbell Yachts

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by SolomonGrundy, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. SolomonGrundy
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    SolomonGrundy I'm not crazy...

    Gonzo, none of those links worked for me...any way you can grab me a screen shot?
     
  2. SolomonGrundy
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    SolomonGrundy I'm not crazy...

    Well...not much has changed, the hang up in documenting her now is that they want an Original Builder's Certificate signed by the builder or someone who worked there at the time...in 1976. Campbell Yachts has been out of business for idk how long...maybe 40 years? It is quite possible mine is the last boat they ever built. Of course the USCG doesn't give a damn...it's all about the paperwork for them. There is possibly an option for a Waiver of Evidence of Build, but the catch 22 is that I have to come up with "competent and persuasive evidence" that the boat was built IN Santa Ana, CA BY Campbell Yachts.
    ANY help on how I can go about this is still greatly appreciated...maybe even worth a fishing trip.
     

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  3. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    Yes. Stop dealing with the clerk and ask to speak to the Manager. That is the same advice I gave to people facing the same problem while I worked in the Coast guard Office of Boating Safety. These low level people only know what the book says to do. They don't exercise any common sense. You can't produce what doesn't exist. Take it to a higher level until you get to someone who can exercise some discretion and make a common sense decision. If that gets you nowhere contact your local Representative or Senator and have them tell the Coast Guard to get off the pot. And that's a former Coast Guard Officer and bureaucrat telling you that.

    And write a letter or call the below, explaining the situation:

    Vice Admiral Linda L. Fagan
    Commander Pacific Area.
    USCG Island
    Alameda CA
    Phone: (510) 437-3522

    By the way she's the 4th or 5th ranking person in the Coast Guard. If she or her staff can't help you then only God can.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
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  4. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Yup, as I said early on

    " In EVERY case of an apparent bureaucratic impasse, I have found that "engaging with the enemy" will produce a solution. You need to put all supporting documents together with your own story, and march into the "Maritime Documentation Center", and ask higher and higher pay-grades for a solution. Just be nice, and appear sincere and insist that there must be "some way" to overcome the problem, and "maybe their supervisor will be able to suggest a course of action".

    It may end up being a stroke of the pen from the Department Head after a lot of hard yards. Despite the conspiracy theorists, most regulations have a reason for existing, and if you have encountered an unforeseen "blockage", you are doing your civic duty to get a solution developed."


    Don't forget the supporting paperwork. They cant approve a verbal story.
     
  5. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Oh common, the state did not just stumbled upon that boat. There is enough paperwork on it to satisfy every clerk on the planet. You just have to find it, and the place to start is in the state archive. You should be able to get hold of the original building plans, bill of sale, etc.
    If you don't know how to find those things hire someone who knows how to search archives.
     
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  6. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    Agree with Ike. Reach out to the USCG. It's quite clear local state officials can't keep an inventory of their own vessels (even retired vessels). That's pretty sad.

    Congrats on taking her on and giving her a 2nd opportunity to sail once again!
     
  7. SolomonGrundy
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    SolomonGrundy I'm not crazy...

    Thanks all for the thoughtful advice.
    I will take it and keep you posted.
     
  8. SolomonGrundy
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    SolomonGrundy I'm not crazy...

    Update.
    ...Nearly a year and a half later.
    In case anyone is still interested in this thread, I thought I'd post an update. Also, who knows, in the future someone else may buy a Public Vessel and run into the same situation I have...and if that is the case...I pity you already.
    Since the early stages of having to wade through the bureaucratic morass that is the National Vessel Documentation Center, this is where I am now...I have failed at every turn to convince anyone with any degree of authority that the vessel I purchased from the State of California...the one with the CA issued Certificate of Number and Undocumented Vessel Certificate of Ownership listing Campbell Yachts as the builder...was actually built by Campbell Yachts in California. To say it has been an uphill battle would be very much an understatement.
    As a few in this thread have pointed out, a recreational vessel need not be documented. I guess I was not clear enough from the start that I have no interest in making her a recreational vessel, that would be an incredible waste of potential imo...but as the song goes, ..."I get knocked down, and I get up again..." It seems that SOMEONE SOMEWHERE actually pontificated that one day, there may be a vessel that WAS ACTUALLY BUILT in the US...that for whatever good reason, couldn't meet the stringent and inflexible requirements for proof by the USCG NVDC.
    And so they wrote 46 CFR 67.101
    46 CFR § 67.101 - Waiver of evidence of build. § 67.101 Waiver of evidence of build. (a) A vessel owner applying for documentation unable to obtain the evidence of build required by § 67.99 may apply for a waiver of that requirement to the Director, National Vessel Documentation Center.
    It goes on to say that a) The request must be in writing to the director of the NVDC, b) Must state why the requirements of the Evidence of Build Certificate can not be met, and 3) Must include persuasive and compelling evidence. So...I did all that.
    And nothing. Well...not nothing, next to nothing. They wrote back and actually told me they couldn't grant the waiver because the evidence I provided wasn't from a person "having personal knowledge because they built or supervised the build..." I pointed out to them that that is not a requirement for a waiver under 67.101 but rather a requirement for 67.99 and that they should know that if it is their job to review such petitions...I would like to point out at this time that in my waiver application I included everything I could think of that pointed to the vessel being built in CA...including photos of what is quite obviously the vessel nearing completion in the boatyard, almost ready for launch on a trailer being towed by truck with a CA license plate of the period, a page from Motorboating & Sailing Magazine January 1975 showing a listing of a 56' twin engine trawler WITH a lines drawing in profile that matches exactly the profile of my vessel, a publication by the CADWR called: Research Vessel San Carlos describing her construction and operation...and about 20 other documents basically listing Campbell Yachts of Santa Ana, CA as her builder.
    I told them that if they were denying my application for a waiver then I wanted to appeal that decision.
    And low and behold...they balked. I got an email from someone at NVDC actually asking me for more information...more proof. Well, believe it or not, I actually see this as a good sign. They haven't YET denied my waiver request and they are at least now willing to listen to me instead of dismissing me offhand.
    One avenue I have not yet explored is attempting to track the main engines back from the manufacturer to the local distributor and then to Campbell Yachts...I know it's a long shot, but in the end...I know the boat was built in CA, the state of CA knows the boat was built in CA...the boat WAS built in CA. Eventually, I hope, NVDC will run out of hoops for me to jump through and I'll be able to get her documented and move on. Until then...
    I get knocked down, and I get up again...no, you're never gonna keep me down...
    SG
     

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  9. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    As a retired Coast Guard Officer I apologize on behalf of the USCG. What you have been through is ridiculous. Someone is having a bureaucratic field day at your expense.
     
  10. SolomonGrundy
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    SolomonGrundy I'm not crazy...

    Thanks Ike...I'm a merchant marine...I'm used to getting screwed by the USCG.
     
  11. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    Semper Paratus
     
  12. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    Oh my. What a fiasco. May the force be with you on this endeavor!

    Question: Have you explored this can be registered another way?

    e.g.

    1. Contact nautical architect and surveyor to examine the vessel and all related data you have gathered thus far.

    2. Nautical architect writes up a design study and declares the vessel seaworthy based on design and build.

    3. For peace of mind, a registered marine surveyor also inspects vessel and submits report.

    There’s got to be an alternate method, particularly if the original boatyard is not available.

    Don’t give up!
     
  13. SolomonGrundy
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    SolomonGrundy I'm not crazy...

    Yeah, really no other way to go about this...to be clear, I'm not talking about registering the vessel, that is easy. I'm talking about documenting the vessel, that is not quite as easy. The Laws in 46 CFR part 67.97 are really not ambiguous. Other than all the hoops you have to jump through regarding title and ownership and that sort of thing...really the only other requirements for documenting a vessel are that it has to be over 5 net tons, wholly owned by a US citizen and having been built in the US of US materials.
    That's it.
     

  14. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Thanks for the follow up. Maybe I was not clear in my previous post, so I'll try again. The state does not know what papers it has on this boat because the state does not care. You have to go find the records yourself or hire somebody to do it. The place to start is the state archive. The records are hold in several collections, some unprocessed and none digitized:
    Water Resources Collections and Archives records https://oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/c832028j/
    Inventory of the Water Resources Control Board Records https://oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/tf7j49n8mn/dsc/#dsc-1.3.8
     
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