Poor man’s passagemaker

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Milan, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Let me return that compliment unused!

    I have not seen, and do not see, these boaters on a tight budget in noticeable numbers, and I circumnavigated several times and sail almost year round.

    PAR told you the rest already. Hence moot to comment on your rant again.
     
  2. Milan
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Milan Senior Member

    My excuses for late reactions, I was a way for a weekend and today was a busy day at the office...

    Theme of this thread is new built, very seaworthy power boat with auxiliary sails able to cross the ocean and to go to the high latitudes.

    “Poor” is a relative term, I didn’t mean really poor, I meant middle class. (Too poor to buy perfect passagemaker).

    Richard, I don’t want to hijack your threads so I’ll answer your posts here if you don’t mind.

    I’m not sure that I understand you correctly and if this analogy, (cars versus boats), is a good one, but I’ll try anyway:

    Essence of the car is not luxury but mobility it provides, be it a Rolls, or Citroen 2CV, or anything else in between. 2CV does not have allure and style of the Rolls but it will still bring you where you want to go. And it does have it’s own charm and can be a lot of fun with all of it’s crudeness and imperfections.

    I for example have fond memories of one long summer with couple of friends, girls, two 2 CV’s, surfboards, tents... We had some of the best times of our lives and we weren’t bodered by Rolls Royces at all. They didn’t even crossed our mind, we were certainly not jealous at them.

    Some of the best things in a life are for free or almost free.

    Do you think that only Rolls is worthwhile to drive and if one can’t have it then better not to drive at all?

    Back to the boats:

    In a similar way as the essence of the car is to provide mobility on the roads, (different types do that with various levels of luxury), so is essence of the passagemaker ocean crossings under power, (I would allow auxiliary sail plan). It can be done in luxury or in a modest comfort.

    You are specialised in the perfect ones.

    Partly inspired by old forum discussion about sailing boat versus power boat costs and mainly by your passagemakers, I started a thread with idea of looking into the possibilities of the smaller, basic type passagemaker, with considerably less volume, that would possibly be affordable to ordinary, middle class people.

    I’m not trying to make cheap Rolls Royce here, more something as an Opel. That’s why I didn’t start with a gentleman cruiser as a reference point but from very trim, low windage, low resistance type of hull with a space for the auxiliary sails.

    It seems that quite a lot of people are attracted to the idea of voyaging in the power boat. Comfort level is quite an personal thing to a certain extent. Some people wouldn’t cruise without professional crew and comfort level of the villa, so their minimum vessel is of few hundred tons of displacement.

    Others are satisfied with a basics. Not so long ago sailing boats between 9 to 12 meters were the norm for ocean cruising with a family. I think that power boat with auxiliary sails with similar volume for accommodation as a conventional sailing yacht of about 11 to 12 meters could function well for two people, and wouldn’t brake the bank – single engine, trim hull of 18 – 20 meters long 3.5 – 4 meters wide, simple, cheap sail plan. (No sailing against the wind).

    I think it is. Here, in The Netherlands everyone has a 5 weeks paid vacation per year. Many people have more, for example government employees work 36 hours/week. If they choose to work longer, they don’t get paid for it but save free days for holidays.

    As of sailboats, there is no doubt that cheapest way to cruise is very basic sail boat. Simple boat and resourceful, experienced crew who can do all necessary maintenance by themselves can sail very far with very little money, as seaman did for centuries. It can still be done.

    Maybe we can discuss this on separate thread, this one was about power boats.
     
  3. WestVanHan
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Actually there are poor man's Rolls Royce and Bentleys,they're 8-10 years old and and 15-25% the new price,and less than a new mid size sedan-I have an Arnage.

    5 year old RR Phantoms are 35% their new value..

    So this translates to buying a good but used boat,but like I said before-"poor man" is a relative term,and as said before would be a used boat.

    But just go to any marina in the world,and they are stuffed with boats that people dreamed to sail around the world with,but never got to it.
    Or left there after getting the s$%& scared out of them.
     
  4. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Thanks Richard and Par for your vigorous statements... I stopped believing in Santa Claus many years ago, and I feel hard to swallow the marvelous story of the guy that travelled many years for less than the price of the food. So passagemakers at 5000 bucks have a name; "not always floating object close to the state of wreck". Sorry pals, I do naval engineering, not necropsy.

    A RR, even at 35% of its new value, remains a very expensive car, beyond of reach of most people, and maintenance is very expensive...So poor man is a very relative term. Sure that a guy with 100 million dollars assets feels poor when he looks at Carlos Slim and Bill Gates...
     
  5. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    ...yep, I guess it is all relative.....

    I spent 1981 cruising for <$2K, my last trip was just <$500K......both were exceptionally nice times......the last one i had my daughter with me, the first one there were only the two of us.......those daughters cost a lot eh....
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Nice to see, you got that straight!

    And I hope you don´t see my contribution here as a hijack.

    It was absolutely clear for me what your intention is, and I have NO problem with this attempt, quite the opposite.

    But I have a problem when our drivel artists tell us one could sail the world for years on a few 1000$. Or recommend floating debris as appropriate vessels to cross oceans.
    None of these unworldly armchair sailors lives in a cardboard box, scrounging and collecting his food from shore and jungle, but they recommend that as a viable lifestyle. Hence my sharp comments.

    Dead sure one can make a capable passagemaker substantially below the cost of these three vessels we are discussing further on my threads. It must be clear though, that this cannot be named "perfect" by any means.

    A jury rig was already part of the design on two of the three vessels, and to some extend it makes sense to have it.
    The motorsailor does not, because that is not longer a motoryacht, it is a well powered sailing boat with all the related disadvantages.. No way around that fact.

    I can imagine (and have some plans) a boat around 20m Loa, with the accommodation equivalent to a 15m motorboat. Having a kite and a mizzen to provide steadying, and some slow speed, say 4-5 kn, at favourable winds, or assist the engine. Such craft would come out at about 1mio€
    When we search for something substantially below this figure, we have to give up ocean crossing capability, or sacrifice safety.

    No, I don´t think the Rolls Royce was a good example, but I don´t think your reduction on just the transport value was a good one also.
    If I want a RR, I don´t want it only to go from A to B. The same is valid here. One can fly cheaper, safer, and much more comfortable to any destination in the world, than sailing there.

    But people dream.
    This is the perfect place here, to see, how dreams and reality collide.
    I bet London for a brick, that not one of the contradictors here, has sailed the world, or plans to sail the world! They dream to do, yes. But they don´t let it become true.
    Assuming they would have the funds (which less than 1 promille here has), they would be found in the bays within 50 miles from homeport.

    Here in the region I sail at present, is one of the finest yachts ever built.
    http://www.nordia.com/index.php?sel...ted_yacht_option=show_image&selected_image=95
    Capable (and designed for) cruising the world all year round. She has a value far north of 5mio$. Since March I have seen her sitting in 4 different bays, at anchor for weeks on end at the same place. All within 35 miles.
    THAT IS REALITY.........

    Back to topic:
    affordable (for the wealthy), passagemaker (motor), with sufficient accommodation.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    We've all been beating around the bush will limited success, but this hopefully suggests what "cruising" or "passage making" actually is. The actual sailing or steaming time spent aboard is about 1% or 2% of the total time aboard the yacht. The rest of the time is on a hook or at a berth. Also, the skipper and crew are not aboard the yacht, they are out shopping, dinning, exploring, sight seeing, trying to get their visas extended, arranging for haul outs, bottom scrubbing, routine maintenance, etc. What the skipper and crew are not doing is lounging around the cockpit with Margaritas in hand, talking about the blonds on the 58' barge in the next slip over. Those that actually do this are collage boys, on holiday in a bare boat charter, which isn't the same thing.
     
  8. apex1

    apex1 Guest


    You are soo right Paul!

    Especially on the Margaritas!


    The robust sailor just takes the can.......................like me.
     

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  9. Wavewacker
    Joined: Aug 2010
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Hmm, anyway, would an 79 Albin Vega 27 be anygood? Full canvas, fridge, electronics, many upgrades.....sold for 6K on Ebay, spend another 6k maybe.....? Is that what the OP is talking about?
     
  10. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Or, a 33' Nauticat, just under 100K. Would that work?
     
  11. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

  12. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

  13. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

  14. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    yipster designer

    [​IMG]
    or.. perhaps that 37ft '77 Jeanneau, its location and price is really good
     

  15. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Are we going toward Craigslist :D

    Daniel
     
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