Point me in the right direction, Programs / Info / direction.

Discussion in 'Software' started by somebody, Feb 1, 2011.

  1. somebody
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    somebody Junior Member

    I've come on to this site in the hopes of finding the correct avenues for computerizing a business that a friend of mine has.

    In the past this company has worked paper and pen/pencil designing without computer technologies.

    What there looking for is a program that can not only help design a yacht, but also simulate it's performance in whatever conditions they would like to see it undergo.

    Also, I think there hoping, whether it be another program? to scan there drawn designs/images and convert them? to suit whatever program. whatever is best suited for there needs?

    I'm thinking they will need to be able to use a forum. I'm assuming this one has a wide range of threads on design programs?

    There willing to pay for the best. I'm assuming a site that you can also question them, the best teaching, easiest to use or learn to use.

    Also, at least the question of education would have to come up, Which programs do they use in educational facilities?

    You don't have to have the answers, just point me in the right direction.

    Thanks for any, and all help.

    I do apologize if I'm in the wrong area?

    ( I will continue to read threads on this site also, just wanted some feedback.)

    Somebody
     
  2. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    I find strange a company currently does nor use computers.

    So, what are their needs ?

    Also, willing to pay for the best is hard. Does your friend has an america cup budget for performance prediction ?
     
  3. ACuttle
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    ACuttle Marine Design Engineer

    Are you both based in the UK? Some more background information would help give you the best advice - I am taking it that your friend is not particularly computer or CAD literate?

    Which designer are they? What sized of vessels are they developing and from what materials.

    Being able to pay for the best, might not be best approach when it comes to deciding on the software as this will quickly run up very high costs. Especially as from any early stage they may not know exactly where their operations are going to need software. You are looking for several pieces of software each to meet some of the questions you have asked.

    Simply you would need (with examples):
    Hull modelling software - Maxsurf/Rhino etc.
    Hull analysis software - Hydromax (which may not cover all performance requirements)
    2D/3D Structural design software - AutoCAD, Solidworks, ShipConstructor etc.

    If your friend is involved in a commercial concern then learning how to use all the software themselves might not be an efficient approach as it would likely take years to learn several software packages to a fully conversant level from level-0. It may be a better solution to take on a designer who is already an operator who can then back-train other staff members.

    Taking it that you're in Newcastle UK - Education is available but depends a lot on the software. Without knowing the experience levels that are being covered it makes it harder to give an reasonable answer.

    You seem somewhat vague, which makes it harder to help. Let me know more what you are looking for as I've got a lot of contacts which the marine-CAD industry who would be able to help you.
     
  4. ACuttle
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    ACuttle Marine Design Engineer

    I thought so myself too, but that is often a habit of UK naval-architects and similar.
     
  5. somebody
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    somebody Junior Member

    I find strange a company currently does nor use computers.

    The father never used them, liked to design the way he did.

    The sons are now taking over, and are looking for more efficient technologies.

    So, what are their needs ?
    They've asked me to look into something that will do everything and is quick and painless to use that will suit the before mentioned needs?

    What is needed is a program as stated and someway of getting previous designs from paper to the computer program.

    Once a suitable design program is found, hopefully for them they wont need to go to a education facility. Learn in there spare time over net if need be.

    Also, willing to pay for the best is hard. Does your friend has an america cup budget for performance prediction ?

    Yeah prices may be a problem, there not loaded, but there willing to pay something if need be. Assuming it's not 1,000 of dollars?

    I have no knowledge of Yacht Design etc. I'm more of an I.T person just trying to give them a helping hand. Even if I just give them some avenues and an idea of what is required, depend on which avenue they go down. Give them something to evaluate.

    I think they're wanting to perhaps try a program out, or a few?

    I personally through having to learn a lot of different programs, would rather do the research, see which are widely used, escpecially in educational circles. They would have to be the most widely used and the amount of information for learning would be the best?

    or

    not?

    Oh yeah for some reason they want to steer clear of CAD?

    So whether that is possible?
     
  6. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    :rolleyes: High hopes.. Might be better for starters self learn with Freeship?
     
  7. somebody
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    somebody Junior Member

    Are you both based in the UK? Some more background information would help give you the best advice

    It's actually Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia. (Lake Maquarie)

    - I am taking it that your friend is not particularly computer or CAD literate?

    I'm taking it that way to, but I'm not sure. There relatively new friends, I don't even know the name of the company/business.

    Which designer are they? What sized of vessels are they developing and from what materials.

    From what I could gather up to 30 feet long, I should have been paying more attention.

    I think they'd like to build something for the? where is it, Sydney to Hobart?

    You are looking for several pieces of software each to meet some of the questions you have asked.

    Right, I was thinking that that may occur.

    Simply you would need (with examples):
    Hull modelling software - Maxsurf/Rhino etc.
    Hull analysis software - Hydromax (which may not cover all performance requirements)
    2D/3D Structural design software - AutoCAD, Solidworks, ShipConstructor etc.


    Thanks this is helpful.

    It may be a better solution to take on a designer who is already an operator who can then back-train other staff members.

    yep.

    You seem somewhat vague, which makes it harder to help. Let me know more what you are looking for as I've got a lot of contacts which the marine-CAD industry who would be able to help you.

    Yeah, sorry for my vagueness, until tonight I didn't even know this guy was part of a family yacht business. We were casually talking and he spoke of how they were thinking of getting some program.

    I offered help to get the information that they wanted and perhaps try a few programs for myself. level 0 as you said. They may find it disappointing and not like the idea of hiring a designer. But it does sound more logical if it's going to take several years to achieve.

    Even perhaps short term until they can re-educate there-selves.
     
  8. ACuttle
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    ACuttle Marine Design Engineer

    This is a fairly worrying statement, CAD is Computer Aided Design - without it you'd be left without a working solution. It seems to me that they've got a misunderstanding of what CAD is. Before anything else they need to have an accurate view of CAD systems. Looking at the AutoCAD and Solidworks demo videos should give them a starting point. The marine software is a bit less demo'd.


    There are plenty of old boys I've worked with how have worked this way but rapidly have found themselves outpaced.

    I think from that statement you can tell yourself that this is not a possible factor, there rarely is a single magic bullet.

    This is do-able depending on the nature of the original drawings.

    I have a pretty poor view of educational programs for this subject but I've been involved in 3D design from a very early stage. If you don't have a basic level of experience some formalised training would likely be needed. From a capital investment point of view they would be better off hiring a specialist than having an investment in software that they cannot access.

    Yes it will be, for UK prices you'd be looking at £500-1000 to get a viable computer to then run £1000-£10,000 of software - and this is not for cutting edge systems.

    A basic spec list could be put together quite easily, it depends on materials, vessel sizes/types etc.

    The bigger suppliers all have trial versions available but without knowing how to use one they are not going to be much help. Visiting a rep at a sales fair might be a better way of seeing all/some of the options available.

    What is used by teaching instiutes will depend on your region, but there are common programs.
     
  9. ACuttle
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    ACuttle Marine Design Engineer

    No worries, I've worked with people who have been using word for their drafting. They route they may want to take is to use a sub-contractor for a few projects, they can then work on paper and leave it to the designer/draftsman to work the conversions into CAD, this way they don't have to worry about an initial capital investment on staff or software whilst they can experience the benefits with different routes/software.

    I've worked with several paper designers over the years. I'm based in Newcastle (UK) so my contacts may be a little stretched for you.
     
  10. somebody
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    somebody Junior Member

    Yep, I didn't expect that all there needs would be met.

    looking for more efficient technologies.

    They want to optimize the performance of there yachts and stand out.

    something that will do everything and is quick and painless to use

    looks like multiple programs and lots of education ;)

    they wont need to go to a education facility.

    looks like they will unless they employ someone else with those skills

    Assuming it's not 1,000 of dollars?

    Wonder what the cost is to learn several different programs and purchase them?

    I'll have to look at a few different ways to go and the cost/time it will consume.

    Thanks for being helpful, hey.

    With the post replies to this thread I will have more questions to bring before them and find out some information from them regarding the lengths there willing to go to financially, educationally and the amount of time they want to involve there selves with this project of there's. I think there yachts are fiber glass, most are on the lake?
    But I'll ask them anyway and any other question you guys bring up that I cant answer.
     
  11. somebody
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    somebody Junior Member

    No worries, I've worked with people who have been using word for their drafting. They route they may want to take is to use a sub-contractor for a few projects, they can then work on paper and leave it to the designer/draftsman to work the conversions into CAD, this way they don't have to worry about an initial capital investment on staff or software whilst they can experience the benefits with different routes/software.

    Thanks hey ACuttle

    It can be very useful to come to forums and communicate your needs. I think I'll have to get them to come on the net, if they have a connection?

    I've worked with several paper designers over the years. I'm based in Newcastle (UK) so my contacts may be a little stretched for you.

    :D

    This is a fairly worrying statement, CAD is Computer Aided Design - without it you'd be left without a working solution. It seems to me that they've got a misunderstanding of what CAD is. Before anything else they need to have an accurate view of CAD systems. Looking at the AutoCAD and Solidworks demo videos should give them a starting point. The marine software is a bit less demo'd.

    I was waiting for a comment like that, :) from what I could tell from the searches I made before I came here and the twenty or so programs I read up on. A high per-portion needed/worked with CAD. Are they add-ons for CAD, kind of like Firefox and it's add-ons?


    Quote:
    What is needed is a program as stated and someway of getting previous designs from paper to the computer program.
    This is do-able depending on the nature of the original drawings.

    Yeah, that's what I was thinking, I thought someone must have come up with a way of doing it, hey. Scan, then change format of design through some program before using it in CAD or whatever program you'd use.

    If you don't have a basic level of experience some formalized training would likely be needed. From a capital investment point of view they would be better off hiring a specialist than having an investment in software that they cannot access.

    It sounds like the best way to go, like you were saying, that person could, what did you call it? back-learn?

    Yes it will be, for UK prices you'd be looking at £500-1000 to get a viable computer to then run £1000-£10,000 of software - and this is not for cutting edge systems.

    Yeah, once the whole program side is worked out, then I would have looked at the pc it's self. I would have assumed that apart from the simulation side of things, it wouldn't be over demanding on the computer. That's without actually having System Requirements for the programs which aren't worked out yet.

    A basic spec list could be put together quite easily, it depends on materials, vessel sizes/types etc.

    Sorry, I don't know what you mean regarding a spec list?

    I think they're wanting to perhaps try a program out, or a few?
    The bigger suppliers all have trial versions available but without knowing how to use one they are not going to be much help. Visiting a rep at a sales fair might be a better way of seeing all/some of the options available.

    They have used the computer to some degree, they wanted to try some programs out?

    Yeah, I fully agree ACuttle, I cant see the use in trying a program out.

    What is used by teaching institute will depend on your region, but there are common programs.

    Yeah, I'll have to look on tech college's and Uni's for some course that covers a group of programs for all aspects of yacht design.

    Make an informed decision.

    Like you said though the cost of the programs, the time it will consume. I suppose they got to weigh up what is financial more viable?

    I better go to sleep, I get started and loose all track of time.
    Thanks for all your help this will give them some idea to direct them at least.
    It's not a waste of time. I'll pop back sometime tomorrow

    somebody.
     
  12. ACuttle
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    ACuttle Marine Design Engineer

    It depends on how you define CAD but in reality any form of modelling is CAD, though they may be thinking of raditional 2D-CAD dafting. To perform almost any analysis you will need to produce a 3D model which is a CAD operation.

    Most programs are stand-alone but some are plugins.

    Specification list of what they are looking to do and with what craft. You need a shopping list (and one where you've ordered things by priorty vs cost). If they're looking to do high-end optimisation you'd be more likely to be looking at 10's of thousands - as it has been suggested by other people this is pretty much something that is limited to major applications. It's a fairly specialist discipline (like FEA) so even with an inhouse CAD setup you'd likely sub it out.

    If they are doing a lot of maths and 3D work the better the PC they can afford the better, nothing is more consitantly annoying than working on a under specc'ed machine. I've never had to be involved in that much major simulation but I would suspect that it would involve some big CPU usage - I think it's pretty unrealistic that they'll do much inhouse beyond the usual stability etc.

    If they are working in GRP, then they'll likely be working with a lot of compound (two-directional) curvature and little major structural work (when compared to wood or metal). Something like Rhino 3D would be a good starting point for them - a trial version is available:
    http://www.rhino3d.com/

    It's a pretty easy to pick up 3D-CAD package and imports and exports in most of the major formats which mean it works well with other programs. They'll need to get over any CAD reservations pretty quickly if they are serious about using computers - after all it's no different in the overall scheme of things than using pen & pencil.
     
  13. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    ????

    You barely optimize performance by changing design tools. You do it by changing the building technology.

    A cored infused hull with a lead bulb and a carbon mast will probably be better performer than a carvel wood iron ballast long keel and wooden mast.

    Some questions :

    What technology their designs currently use, and what technology they are ready to switch to for building to have better performances ?

    How do they currently determine scantlings and weigth / stability ?
     
  14. somebody
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    somebody Junior Member

    I don't know, they were or rather one of the sons was speaking with me.
    Explaining what he wanted, but as I've found out there is a hell of a lot to take into acount and it's not as simple as getting some program and trying to nut it out.

    I'll be bringing them, or suggesting to them to come to this site and read the responses to my questions, and the questions that are possed because of my questions.

    Hopefully they'll have time next week to look at this thread, and then perhaps I can ask, or they can. Any thoughts they have after reading this.

    I think they were hoping with the simulation side of things, they could play around with the shape to improve performance?

    I don't know, as I said I have only spoke with this person for a short while on this subject and until now had no real view other than to download a program, which turned out to be the wrong way of going for them, from what I can see, with what's been inputed here.

    They simply need to look at where they stand right now, and if possible, answer some of these questions brought forward. There is no easy answer/ quick fix for what there wanting.

    Thanks to all for all replies it has been helpful.

    Some
     

  15. formsys
    Joined: May 2007
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    formsys formsys

    Pretty much everyone in naval architecture in Australia uses the Maxsurf suite of software. They use Maxsurf for the hull modeling, Hydromax for the stability, Hullspeed for resistance and Span for sailing performance prediction. See http://www.FormSys.com for more info. Feel free to give me a call if you want to talk to someone
    Phil (08) 93351522
     
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