Pocket cruising boats

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Guillermo, Apr 30, 2006.

  1. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

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  2. SeaSpark
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    SeaSpark -

    Dick Zaal Quickening

    A design from the not very well known Dick Zaal, think you will like it Guillermo.

    By the way identifying coastal cruising boats under 30' is a massive task. Could you narrow you question down a bit by making more restictions?

    http://www.dickzaalyachtdesign.nl/ no direct link possible, look under designs, wooden.

    Under "current project" there is the Lunde design it's beautiful but over 30ft.
     

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  3. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    I agree with SeasparK. Besides you are not a "beginner"....So, what do you really want to know, that you don’t know already? or do you want boat examples?

    I guess that the basic stuff is: if you have a small boat the RM will not be big, so, if you want to maximize seaworthiness you should have a boat proportionally heavier (D/L) than a bigger boat, to have a bigger RM.
    A small boat (small RM) is more easily capsized than a bigger boat, then it should have a higher AVS and a smaller inverted stability, to be able to easily recover from a capsizing etc, etc, etc

    Anyway, making a small boat seaworthy is not economical advantageous, because it will be an expensive boat....and for that money you can buy a bigger boat, as seaworthy, faster and with more space...but there are some beautiful small oceangoing boats out there...and if I did not have a family I would probably fall for this one....You would have to see the boat, the quality of the interior and the absolute perfection of everything to understand why. (Take also a look at the stability curve and see the movie).

    http://www.marieholm.nl/uk/zeiljacht1.html

    PS1- I know that it is a 33ft, but it is so narrow that, at least in volume it is a pocket cruiser.

    Ps2-But I guess that you would prefer this one:

    http://www.vilm.de/content_yachten/101.php
     

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  4. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Thanks, SeaSpark. Nice design, indeed.
    Let's see: I'm interested in discussing seaworthy pure cruisers (so no cruiser-racers), design category B, or A, although this last is not essential, as we are talking coasters.
    My preferences go in the line of traditional looking designs, but that's only my personal taste. I would like to hear from all stiles.
    Heavy or light? In my opinion medium to heavy, let's say with a D/L ratio (imperial units) from 250 to 350, as I find lightness doesn't mach very well with seaworthiness, although I would like to hear other opinions, too.
    Able for a family of 4 to do some extensive coastal cruising, so with enough interior volume and clean arrangement.
    On the powering side, enough to cope with bad weather when in a tight situation, but with fuel efficiency in mind (So no too much power). Will be also very interesting in knowing about energies other than diesel.
    I'd like to discuss also equipment and appliances for such boats.
    Rig? Open to all types and aspect ratios.
    Keel?: All styles also open for discussion.
    Hull materials: All.
    Deck arrangement: Open to discussion (I'm not looking for pilothouse motorsilers here!)
    I Would like also to discuss some interesting design data, as hull coeficients, etc, usually not available in commercial information.
    Cheers.
     
  5. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Thanks, Paulo. You posted while I was answering SeaSpark!
    Yes, I know those will be expensive boats, but let's say money is not a concern here...:)
    Very nice boats, the ones you post. Maybe you will be surprised, but I like more the Marieholm than the Vilms :!:
    Interesting to know 'Friendships' will be back in production in Marieholm's hands...
     
  6. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Hum, I have some experience with costal cruising with 4 and if I ask the family opinion about "cruising extensively" in a boat this size, they would say that I had lost my marbles.
    Sorry Guillermo but a boat smaller than 30ft (and not a beamier one, on account of the inverted stability) is suitable for a couple, or a couple and one small child. Maybe with young twins, you can do it in a boat like that,I mean, extensive cruising with 4, in reasonably comfort.:D
     
  7. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    I'm not talking about king size berths and the like, conceived for not salty and lazy people, certainly ;). Just normal bunks. I've personally done some pretty extensive cruising in a Puma 23, with my father and two brothers of mine, when I was young.
     

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  8. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    That's four men. Try to do that with two men and two women:D
     
  9. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    I get your point, Paulo :) but I still believe coastal crusing can be done quite comfortably with 4 under 30' (Note: I'm not talking liveaboard). At least in Europe, with mushrooning marinas all around, allowing for short trips and where you can enjoy showers and other comforts whenever you want.

    I've owned a McGregor 26 (1984 model, with winged keel) when I was living in Cancún, sailing her down from Key West. Crew for that trip was 5 men.
    In Cancún I used her for family sailing with two children. No problem, although this design is too light and weak for safe cruising in my opinion. She's rather a protected waters good weather weekender. When in the passaging from Key West to Cancún we were caught in a nightly force 7-8 with two metres steep waves: the hinged and retractable rudder failed, being not conceived for that severe punishment. Luckily nothing else went wrong. We managed to make a fortune repair which worked well enough for another 300 miles.

    The Northbeach 24 I mentioned before, has 5 berths and I find she's a proper cruising boat, even being so small. D/L ratio is 283 and SA/D is 16.83 (with main, self-talking jib and yankee); a powerful sailing area, with a low center of effort. The 9 HP diesel engine makes for a 6*HP/D ratio of 8.59, so the boat is clearly a sailing boat with auxiliary engine. Capsize ratio is 1.78 and Comfort ratio 26.29

    Retractable keel allows for extended cruising areas in shallow waters, retractable bowsprit makes the thing cheaper when in marinas and hinged mast step makes channel navigation with low bridges an easy task.

    Styling is very nice, in my opinion, and arrangement is simple and effective. The only minus maybe headroom in the living space: They only talk about 1.95 m under the spramhood, if fitted.

    Design category: B
    Designer: Frans Cobelens

    Cheers.
     
  10. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Janice142's well known search for motorsailers and sailboats under 30':
    http://www.janice142.com/Sailboats.htm
    (Maybe this thread should have been posted by them?)
    More useful information for this thread's purposes:
    http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives.htm

    Some cruisers up to 26 found at PBO mag, to be reviewed under the limitations of this thread's objectives:
    Trident 24, GK 24, Sadler 25, Fisher 25, Contessa 26, Frances 26 (Victoria 800), MacWester 26, Westerly Centaur, Super Seal 26.

    I'd like to hear about referencies to new or old boats, reviews and opinions on which one this forums mebers and visitors consider the best.
     
  11. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    The death of the pocket cruiser is lamentable. A small capable vessel has much to recommend it, I think heavy displacment is definatley a big plus in this type of boat for room and comfort and load capability/performance issues.

    Of the wee cruisers one of the notable I have seen is the Golden Hind 31 (Maurice Griffiths) the design often turns up here (Tasmania) on round the world voyages and is reported to be a comfortable vessel at sea. I don't know her ratios. Even the 26 foot versin has turned up.

    I surveyed one that had the bilge keels removed and the owner reported good handling at sea.

    I did a quick search
    http://www.eventides.org.uk/goldpic.htm

    Cheers
     
  12. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    One of the last to be still in production is the Vanconver 28 :

    "The Vancouver 28 is a direct descendant from the original Vancouver 27, the design that started the Vancouver legend.
    Everything about this yacht should recommend itself to a sailing couple."

    http://www.northshore.co.uk/index.php?p=yachts/vancouvr/van28
     

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  13. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Light, seaworthy + (often) cost effective.

    A light boat (DL under 180) Can be very seaworthy. It can right itself (if properly designed) from 180 deg capsize. It can also be faster. What it can't be is more comfortable at sea. A light boat of the usual proportions (L/B of 3.0 to 3.5) will usually have a jerkier motion than a heavier boat. Kind of like driving a Camry rather than a Ford Explorer over a rough dirt road. The Camry can make it, but you will feel every bump.

    Boats usually cost by the pound. So a heavier boat of the same length is going to cost more than a lighter one, as a general rule. But I will say this, the heavier boat will probably be cheaper per pound, but maye only slightly so. And only when it's new.

    A heavier boat can be made of heavy matterials such as steel and ferrocement that are usually less expensive than lighter matterials, such as aluminum and foam core fiberglass. I think the reason heavier boats have such a reputation for being much more costly than lighter boats is that they are usually not only built in much smaller numbers (less amortizement of molds and other tooling) and are usually built to much more rugged standards. Most I have heard of are intended for offshore sailing. Wheras most lighter boats (even though they may end up there) are usually not.

    Heavier boats tend to hold their value better than lighter ones too. And, when I say this, I am only refering to boats that are still in sound condition. So, if you want to go cruising and your bill fold is limited (as it usually is for most blue water cruisers who actually want to sail accross oceans rather than pay boat mortgages and dream of it) you're going to have to find yourself a nautical bargan. More often than not, that is going to mean buying a used boat that was once popular but is now out of fasion (such as an old IOR boat) and fit it out as best you can. With reasonable luck, you can pay off its boat mortgage while you're still young enough to do it. Hopefully, by then, you will have learned its ways well enough to know when you are really in a dangerous situation rather than merely a frightening one.

    I know all this not from experience, but from reading hundreds of accounts of blue water voyages. Almost always, they happened in boats that were seen as unsuitable to the task, even by their owners. But they set out anyway. They knew that it was either less than ideal or not at all. And, over the many sea miles, they seemed to get so accustomed to their boat that they would defend to the death its virtues.

    Now this wild generalization does not include those nautical craftsmen, such as the Pardy's who have the skill and the willingness to build thier whole boat themselves. (and a very conveniet way to recharge their cruising kitty as well). either Seraffyn or the later Tailism would have bankrupted the Pardy's had they had to purchase them rather than build them.

    Trust me. Before long we will be hearing about ocean passages in the much maligned (and in my opinion, unjustly so) Mac 26. And it won't be because its the best boat for the job. But merely because it is the only boat available to that person at the time.

    When you see me griping in other threads about 'unsafe' and 'unwholesome' off shore racing trends, you now should know the reason why.

    I think the most poisonous myth of our times is; that our actions don't effect others.

    Bob

    BTW the idea that a heavier boat (in smaller sizes) will be significantly different from a lighter one may turn out to be a myth. The reason being that boats of similer LB dimensions have similer pounds per inch rates. For instance: Take two 24 by 8ft boats with one having a light ship displacement that is twice that of the other (one, say, 3,000lbs and the other 6,000lbs light ship), load them both down with 2000lbs of cruising gear and supplies and see what happens. The lighter boat now displaces 5,000lbs and the heavier one 8,000. Both will sink down by about the same amount, but now the heavier one is only 60% heavier than the lighter one.

    Not only that, but the lighter boat may actually experience less strain in its loaded condition than it would in its lighter condition. Its pitch and roll will be less sharp and its initial stability will not change that much. (don't try this with multi's, however. With them, twice the displacement does mean twice the initial stability and therfore twice the strain.)
     
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  14. Raggi_Thor
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    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    But lightweight boats often have a narrow waterline. When they are heavily loaded the wtted area will increase relatively more than for a heavier boat. Then you need to add more sails or it will be slow....
     

  15. Raggi_Thor
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    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    Note: I am not a "fan" of heavy displacement. If you have the money and time to build a boat of 5 tons, I think you should make it long and slender.
     
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