Please some insight on US timber market

Discussion in 'Materials' started by xellz, Feb 18, 2020.

  1. xellz
    Joined: Jul 2017
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    xellz Senior Member

    Recently i've finally received my order from Edensaw Woods in US, clear grain kiln dried alaskan yellow cedar and okoume plywood. There was no issue with plywood as far as i can tell, didn't examine each piece yet. However timber quantity and quality was kind of mind boggling. Would like to hear from someone with knowledge is what i got is what expected or there is serious problem here? I also got 5-6 wooden knots 1.5-2.5cm in diameter that seem to go rather deep.

    Order was 444 board feet, what i could count was only 361 board feet. They had only 2inch thick boards, thinnest piece 4.5cm to thickest 5.5cm. Is this big variation usual thing? I'm asking since in Japan i never saw this big gap, even cheapest 2x4 that i bought for shed for less than 1$ per board feet thickness was less than 1mm difference. I simply don't have much experience in buying large amount of wood. Local knot free timber is different in density compared to what is used in plans, but seems had to go through those calculations because i will have to do it anyway now.

    p.s.
    I don't really have anything against Edensaw, in fact they are the only ones who actually answered me back from dozens of mails i sent to various companies in US.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  2. Barry
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    Barry Senior Member

    Hardwood lumber is typically sold per board foot when purchased in bulk. The board footage is calculated before the lumber is surfaced, planed or sanded.

    I just grabbed the above comment from the internet. I had always been under the impression that if you bought a rough say 1 foot long by 1 inch thick x 1 foot wide, that was a board foot
    and if it was planed to say 3/4 by 1' by a little less than 1 foot in width , it was still calculated at the 1 board foot measurement. Not sure if yours was rough or planed
     
  3. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Great lumber is nearly impossible to find.

    I have always figured softwoods are sold by the nearest quarter inch.

    So, as I said in another post; a 45mm board is considered 2" lumber.

    The same might be true for widths, but I never bought a 1.8"x5.8" board.

    Did you get a bill with each board tallied? Tell them you are short and ask to see their tally.

    Those knots are like one egg per dozen being small. It is gonna happen.
     
  4. xellz
    Joined: Jul 2017
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    xellz Senior Member

    I let go knot issue after confirming it's acceptable, can actually compliment Edensaw here. I did request knot free lumber and they said ok, but the actual grade of lumber allows one face small defects, but majority of planks are knot free, so it means they selected well.
    The 45mm plank also, while left a bit unpleasant feeling it still can be used as originally planned 2inch thick. The rest too, since now i know i don't need to actually plane everything.
    The last question lasts, why the big difference between expected volume and arrived volume. No, i didn't get invoice with all planks separately. I was kinda in a rush because of how slow order process was. Due to recommendation and reviews let my guard down, probably would not happen if i still living back in post soviet countries. There you learn quickly to doubt everyone and everything. 10 years in Japan softened me up quite a bit.

    One last thought is that volume was calculated based on green timber, before drying process. Still a big loss though. How is this done usually?
     
  5. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

  6. xellz
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    xellz Senior Member

    Link above applies to smooth surface finish that are common in home center shop types for example. In japan 2x4 also planed after milling and the actual size is as in link above. I bought more roughly cut 45*90mm stock for shed at really low price and variation is less than 1mm on all planks. I bought not finished timber from Edensaw, i.e. right after industrial saw rough cut without any planing done to surface. I.e. it should be close to nominal size and it is for the most part.

    I've attached file with all timber sizes for you to play around, will be interesting to see with how much volume you will come up. In spreadsheet, so it's easy and fast to run calculations on all timber at once. Openoffice file and exported to pdf, in case you don't use OpenOffice.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    I responded privately.
     
  8. xellz
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    xellz Senior Member

    Ok, perhaps the problem is found. Seems i simply got all the rejects by people who could do the handpicking themselves. I.e. planks like 4.1, 4.2inch count as 6inch wide, or 6.1inch count as 8inch. Oh, even 4.05 inch counts as 6 inches wide. My order specifically was saying to pull enough stock to cover based on finished, processed sizes and it was accepted. Final volume was not counted by me, but Edensaw saying that this will be enough. I can't really do anything at this point, as technically Edensaw didn't do anything wrong here.
     
  9. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    I would call them to verify my assumption. A 4.05" board getting stepped to 6" is pretty cheap. Then if they sent you nominal board footage; you can remind them you requested actual yields. They may end up paying shipping at least on a following order. You paid a lot for that lumber....

    But those are not seconds; they look like resaws from 6" or 8" post stock which would explain a few knots. If you have 3-4 boards of the same width and length; you'd know for sure that they were resawn. You could probably match them up.

    I still don't understand why you bought 2" lumber. It is really hard to work with as you will soon realize. It will bog down any 110v saw. You might consider stepping the saw to 240v if you could. Many table saws are provisioned todoso. Also make sure any cords to your saws are 10-12 gauge or you will lose too much voltage by wire and burn up your tablesaw (seriously).

    If you are short; any makeup order should be for 4/4 lumber which is planed to 0.75" or your 20mm.

    Another thing you can do is laminate ply offcuts. It is likely you will have them, and you might need them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  10. xellz
    Joined: Jul 2017
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    xellz Senior Member

    To clarify and don't give wrong impression for everyone reading. I just got a follow up from Edensaw, mistake was admitted and second shipment should be done. I might jumped to conclusion too quickly because 2inch increments aligned really well with the missing lumber amount along with first answer from Edensaw that they didn't find problems on their part. Edensaw also confirmed they DON'T round up up-size, the opposite. I.e. a 10.4 feet plank is counted as 10, so what they thinking of preparing for me is more than i counted myself.

    Sadly there is no option for me to use 220v tool, i'm basically limited to 110-15A. However there should be no issue, to confirm my new tablesaw is also fine i cut a few 90mm pieces without any issue. Just the speed is not as fast as 2-4kw table saw would. But for clean surface it's good to go slow anyway. Also need to be carefully about not moving piece at an angle, can leave circular marks and as you said, bog down it. The 2inch lumber is simply because no other option was available at that time. I didn't get answer even from CLCBoats and i know quite few people from Japan bought their clc-kayak kits. This might be due to kits are bought from net-shop, lumber required direct inquiry.
     
  11. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Just make all cords minimum 12 gauge wire. Otherwise you can burn up the motor..

    Also, don't do too many cuts at one time. The motor at 110v with voltage drops will start to heat up a lot and eventually it may burn and fail on the windings.

    If you are wise; you'd get a little more shipped. Like I said, 10% waste is really deep low for timber..

    Otoh, you could get another gallon or two of epoxy and cabosil and laminate offcuts.

    I will give you a couple epoxy tips. First, never run below 65F. Otherwise; usage goes up about 10% per 5 degrees. Keep epoxy at 75 and you will have inproved wetout.

    Always wetout biaxials a bit on the bottom. Tops down wetouts require too much time and epoxy. Pvc roller that fits on a roller frame 1.5" iirc? is zero cost and wiped with acetone.

    I only use fast epoxies for fillets I plan to tape same day. Everything else is slow.

    Use a squeegee. You will need to now and then as you overapply resin in location A and need it in location B.

    I am glad the supplier has corrected this issue.
     
  12. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    I'm also glad to hear the problem will be corrected. I would take fallguy's advice very seriously, if you can do it order more wood. Even if you have leftover wood you could sell it for more then you paid if quality wood is so expensive and scarce there.
     

  13. xellz
    Joined: Jul 2017
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    xellz Senior Member

    Still remains to be seen what else will be paid and how things turn out. I won't be able to relax until remaining stock will be in my shed. Import tax, port to ferry terminal transport, customs work, etc, just the island ferry fee is 150-200usd per long pallet. But anyway, much better than trying to replace with local stock, which is also really expensive due to rarity and value for its looks for interior work. Japanese pine is usually not that big when it's harvested, only some locations can offer clear grain. It appears some of my boards were taken and shipped to someone else and they don't record board count or their sizes, just the total volume of the order. I don't know their workflow, but recording at least number of boards for order would offer decent protection against such mistakes.

    As for table-saw, i'm really not worried much here. I won't be cutting a lot in one go for sure, first of all i'm simply afraid of letting thin boards sit for long. If not pushing much and watch out for blade sharpness motor barely heats up. With simple 850w circular saw i ripped 15 4m long 45*90mm still fresh, dripping with juice, planks in half for the shed roof. Due to heavy damage by typhoons, dry timber could not be found anywhere. I pushed quite a bit to speed up work. And this saw was abused so much in past 10 years or so, still goes strong.

    Had to do some compromises for epoxy too and go with what can be bought in Japan. Thought just getting same basic aluminum kit as everyone else, i will check pvc option too. I'm certainly not as ready as i wanted, but this could not be helped in my current situation. I will have to learn few more things as i go.
     
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