Pirates?

Thanks for the well thought out discussion of this issue, hansp77. Like you, I have come to the conclusion that going armed is the only way, but clearly these arms must be used with extreme circumspection.

There are weapons and there are weapons, a pencil in the right hands can be quite deadly, and a shotgun in the wrong hands can be quite ineffective. Perhaps the discussion should move on to details now, as I still have quite a few unanswered questions and the issue of “whether or not” has been pretty well explored. I'd like to discuss "how."

For example:

What kind of arms can we expect to face? AK-47s surely, but anything heavier? And given the difficulty most pirates would have obtaining armor piercing ammo, how much hull plating is needed to stop conventional full-metal jacket rounds in various materials. The article posted above by Delane mentions that the attacked boats were steel, and that these successfully turned the rounds fired at them . . . but with what hull thickness? How does aluminum fare with high-velocity lead? Can the plating be “beefed up” by adding a layer or two of Kevlar? Ceramic tiles?

What are some good concealment tricks?

What weapons besides a gun might prove useful? For example, a Molotov cocktail mortar using a compressed air firing tube and standard-sized beer bottles with timed ignition fuses comes to mind. The cocktails could be mixed quickly, and all the other parts could become “something else” for an inspection. Fuses can be made out of gelatin capsules, potassium permanganate and glycerin. Just take two capsules, throw away the small end of one of them and fill the big end with permanganate. Fill the other capsule with glycerin and place the first big end with the permanganate over the small end of the second. A little tape can hold it together. The glycerin will not dissolve the gelatin, and a squeeze will break the interface allowing the two chemicals to mix. Thirty seconds later spontaneous combustion will occur. Soap powder with the fuel in the beer bottle makes a nice Napalm-like material. A flame thrower doesn't seem too difficult to implement either, for when things get uncomfortably close.

Bill

 

Billy Doc

Your right again buddy, whilst most will see that you rally need arms out their in the 'badlands' or is it 'badwaters' of the world the only safe way is the carrage of arms to defend you and your loved ones the most important part of this is training! if you ain't been properly trained to use your chosen weapon DONT TAKE ONE you'll do more damage - easy for exmilitary I know but anyone else wanting to play must get trained!

have you tried melting styrene drinking cups in the petrol used in yer petrol bombs, another useful napalm! just as innocent as soap! (oooh were nasty mothers we are)

 

it is O.K

No problemo Delane.O.K. I apreciate all this story..My family are going to sail the world hopefully in 2008. Our boat for this purpose is under construction at the moment.We are going to have women and babies on board.

 

Groups of Armed men

Those pictures do look like that place is in Mindanao. Maybe they are the rebel army /freedom fighters.In this area the main mode of transport is by the sea. Some had turned to kidnapping and ransom as their source of income.Very hazardous area.We have a battalion send to our borders with Philipines just to observe them. The present of our army do really improved the safety aspect within our territory.

 

Combating Pirates & Thugs

Ok, now that we’ve debated if and when, let’s start this discussion on the how. First let’s cover ability and training and good common sense that sometimes isn’t so common. Sorry had to say that. First I have an extensive background in guns, hunting, and overall ballistics. So I speak about these issues with practical experience. Training, practical application or practice and mental preparedness are key to doing anything with a respectable degree of ability. That said, the effectiveness as mentioned before depends ones ability to use it well and their comfort level. Years ago I was into large caliber handguns and some of my friends would comment with “so if you were in a gun fight you would certainly use your .44 Magnum right. My response shocked most everyone, because the gun I loved and shot well most was a .22 automatic Ruger MK II target pistol. My friends would say, but it’s such a small bullet and the .44 is twice as large. Yes I replied the .44 is a large bullet and can do some real damage, but in a People fight I want something I can shoot fast and most accurately when faced with that type of situation. And a .22 will kill just a dead as .44 in the right hands. We would go down to the shooting pit to practice. My friends would shoot at beer cans while I shot at empty shot gun shells at the same distance with the same accuracy. I even squirrel hunted with that same pistol. Game Wardens would sometimes ask where my gun was when approached out in the woods. They were shocked when I opened may coat to show a 22 for squirrel or a scoped .44 Ruger Redhawk for deer.

Ok, enough with my bragging. There are some people that would be better off not using a gun for protection. Some people like my Mother included would be better using their charm and good looks or extra cash or gold to buy their freedom. Proper gun safety training is a must for anyone. Basic rules are thus. 1. Always assume a gun is loaded no matter who said it’s unloaded. Unloaded guns kill many people each year. 2. Next never point a gun at anyone you do not intend to kill if necessary and 3rd guns and small children spell funeral.

Weapons of choice: The all around best gun is a 12 gauge pump. Cheaper is better for a boat but I like the Remington 870. The short barreled riot type with pistol grip is best for the application. Here’s why, with 00 buck shot, that’s a shell that pumps out 8 to 15 large lead pellets at about 1200 feet per second (FPS) allows one to basically point and shoot fast and have a fair chance of hitting your target with a few balls of lead each capable of killing depending on the range and area hit. 3 to 75 feet is an effective range. And you have 5 shots before reloading. Next choice would be a pistol of what ever caliber you can shoot well. Ask if you have any other questions regarding guns and bullets.

Concealment: Recommend breaking down a weapon and storing in several areas. A shotgun will break down into about 7 or 8 pieces. The barrel you could stick in the end of an over sized aluminum boat hook tube. Pistol grip in a bag of junk. Receiver in the bottom of a tool box wrapped up in a dirty rag. Minus pistol grip you could wrap the whole gun in a blanket and store in a spinnaker pole end. After your out to sea, drill out the pop rivet and put new ones in. You get idea, be creative.

When to us a weapon? That’s the tricky part and requires a good degree of situational awareness. I read a book once call “In the Gravest Extreme” It covered a variety of when to use gun situations. A lot of this comes down to good common sense and your mental preparedness. You have to run different scenarios through you head to have a base line for how you will act when faced with the real thing. I used that technique years ago before hunting. Later when faced with a game animal in my sights I had already rehearsed my actions making me calmer and more confident. If someone has a specific what if question, I’ll provide my best opinion on the subject or specific scenario. What will you do in the face of danger?

 

I suspect that those photos might not be actual pirates, but more than likely, you are probably right. I simply copied them from a couple of pirate articles that presented them as such.
Second hand mis-information maybe.
You know that saying about a picture telling a thousand words,
well, the picture while not necessarily true, may be true enough.
The thought of these guys or anyone so seriously armed taking over my boat still scares the **** out of me.

BillyDoc, I like your line of thought. For those that have decided that armed is the way is the way to go, then it would be very beneficial to discuss the how of it all. Forms of defensive weaponry that could be safely disguised as common materials and substances would be great, but the key is that these would have to be available and ready to use instantaneously. The problem with a lot of these home made remedies might be that they are a lot more unstable and or dangerous than the professionally made ones.
It would not be hard (I imagine) to very quickly increase the dangers posed from ones own hand made weapons beyond what was posed by the threat of piracy in the first place. As this area is so far from my expertise, I welcome those that know such things to contribute to this.

 

Gun owners

Gun owner have a much bigger chance beeing killed by a gun then non gun owners.

One thread on this subject is enough for me.

 

To be armed or not to be ..

If armed you must be..get a good one, licensed.Malaysia is a country that is very strict about arms, there is a case of one Yacht that got a drift in the South China sea without anybody on board somewhere in our East coast. That yacht towed back to marine police berth and inspected. Two M16 armalite are found in the yacht.The owner are tracked and they claimed back their yacht with the two M16. They are Americans, licensed to carry their guns in USA, their yacht are registered in USA. After some interviews..with the support from their embassy I believe..they are free to go. I don't know what going to happen to them if those weapon are illegally kept- even in their own country.
Every year during the festival seasons..when fire works..crackers and anything that produce big bang noise are used - during this celebration.. bamboo cannon included..it is quite common to have a few boys blown up..from finger injury right into fatallity case..majority of them are from home made explosive. The juvenile bomb maker that survive this boyhood period..grown up to joint the army and 'play' with the real thing. Incident involving explosive in the army are quite small in ratio compared to home brewers.
I believe this is because of the proper training and quality of the weapon used.It is too hazardous to have a home brew concoction that is not stable on board..it might goes kaboom right infront of one face..or right underneath you..lotsa Filipinos are caught in Malaysian waters with homemade bottle bomb that they use to bomb corals..what a way of fishing..quite a high case those fisherman did not comeback in one piece..

 

Gun Owners

SeaSpark,

Your correct in part by saying that gun owner's are more likely to be killed by a gun than non owner's. I've read those statistical numbers over the years too. But usally there referring to home gun owners. The ones who don't have training, leave them laying aroung for children to get into or for someone else to grab and shoot. Now take a look at the "Armed Citizen articles posted in gun magazines. They reflect a large number of cases where everday people defended themselves against thugs on dry land.

Most cruising couples I've meet are intellegent and able to duck when the boom comes across, insure the anchor rode is secured before throwing overboard and change out the raw water impeller when bad. So let's stick to the confidence that smart capable people won't shoot themselves in the foot aboard there floating home with not hospital nearby.

I have another statistic: Those that drive motor vehicles everyday and many times just barely avoid a head on collision by 6 feet also have a better chance of a fatal accident than those who don't drive, take chances and just sit in a little dark hole and hope the UV light doesn't give them cancer. Just trying to point out, there are risk in everything we do.

 

No argument there.

SeaSpark,
I certainly agree with you there. This is a well known statistic.
I don't mean to deny that there would be risks involved in taking a gun on a boat. As with owning a gun in ordinary life, of course there would considerable risks involved, be it accidental or misjudgment, or even something like anger (cabin fever??).
I also want to make it clear that I don't like guns. In just about every concievable aspect of my life, I would never consider owning or using one.
If I could click my fingers and magically make a world without guns, then like most people I know, I would not hesitate to do so. I actually find it rather ironic that I find myself arguing this point, from this side.


If I was to sail anywhere around my own country, or anywhere else that I considered relatively safe, I could not comprehend of taking a gun. I would only consider such if I was to go through these certain well known areas where piracy and murder are well known frequent risks.
I am not worried about being robbed. If simple robbery was the only threat, the loss of material possessions, then I would probably side with the people who advocate not taking a gun.
I have had my house robbed, my personal possesions taken, my private space invaded many times. In one instance I have had armed robbers enter and rob our house when my girlfriend and I were asleep. Now while after this event, and within that particular house, I did admitably begin to sleep with a small wooden club next to the bed, I would never ever consider owning or keeping a gun in the house. To me this is simply too wacko- way too out of proportion to the risks. As far as I understand it, the armed people (knives and nail studded 4x4's) who robbed us, were only armed for their own defense should they have been caught robbing a house that they thought was empty.

Out there, in what has been labled the 'bad lands' or 'bad waters' I do not think that this is necessarily the case.
What I am worried about is that giving up and giving these people what they want does not necessarily mean that you will escape with your life. In many cases, what these people seem to have wanted was robbery AND murder. Whether for pleasure, or simply to better cover their tracks, the end result is the same to the victim, no matter how easily he or she rolled over and provided them with what they demanded.
There seems to be well and trully enough evidence of people being killed when there was no apparent provocation, motivation or need. There also seems to be many examples where these people seem to adopt the strategy of shoot to kill first, and then rob. I cannot see how in any of these examples not having a gun would serve ones advantage.

At its best, this thread seems to have operated by an large as clean debate to air the issues surrounding this ongoing problem. I don't wish to try to convert anyone who has come to a opposite conclusion as myself. As for one I am in no position of experience and or knowledge to even think about doing such. I also don't wish to insult anyone, or generate any personal problems. As I have said, I believe that this should and can only be a personal decision.
What has been suggested (and started), of begining a thread where rather than debating the issue, the HOW of it gets discussed, I think is actually a vital part of this issue. This would hopefully include such things as the proper way to legally declare arms in ports, the safest way to store weapons, etc, etc ..

This forum is after all about sharing ideas and expertise. (albeit about boat design- but personal security upon a boat may just fit in...)

SeaSpark. I trully value your input and your position, as I do the other people who appose gun possesion as a means of detterring piratical attack.
Thus,
What I think would be just as important, if not more so, is for a thread to form from the other side of the argument, where the details, methods and strategies of dealing with pirates and maritime robbery WITHOUT GUNS OR WEAPONS gets openly discussed and shared. I would certainly like to hear what people have to say on this, particularly events involving real or personal experience.

If people want to argue the issue, then this thread seems to be the one. Maybe then these two other threads could be followed through and advanced without having to constantly attempt to prove or justify their position, and focus of the more important details of putting either plan into successfull and safe action.

Best wishes.

 

Delane

'Game animals' don't shoot back!

Whole now ball game huh?!!

 

This talk of shotguns and alternatives reminded me of some work the US military was doing about 10 years ago on various 'alternate' or 'non-lethal' weapons. One was a combustion inhibitor- it was a gas, that you fired in the general direction of the enemy using a special grenade. If any of it wafted into an engine's air intake, the engine instantly stalled and couldn't restart until it was purged clean. Anyone heard about this? Seems like it might be handy to have on board, so you don't have to use the shotgun as much... lob one of these at the pirate boat and get the hell out of there while they dismantle their engine.

 

I would only carry one RPG and my problem is gone. The end ( If you dont Miss )

 

Marshmat,
that is exactly the sort of thing that would deserve further investigation. Anything that could increase your chances of escape/survival, by non-lethal means, and hopefully would not require complex permits, licenses and declaration proceedures would be great.
Of course I could imagine that if something like this became widespread, then pirates could take precausions from such, like always leaving at least one back up engine not running when in range of their victim. They could of course always use something like this as a way to disable powered boats.
No easy solution, but a great idea.

Off the top of my head, how about some sort of floating net like thing that could be fired from a laucher, that would spread widely, and would foul a boats props. Sort of like a floating version of road spikes?

Or even those electro magnetic pulse weapons that police use to inactivate cars. Would these work on a boats vital electrics, or on an engine??

Again though we face the problem of simply providing more tools that could be used for attack rather than defence. And the attacker always has the incentive to overarm, to keep ahead of his victims.
Still, these defensive technologies over some real hope.

Hans.

 

Modern Day fishing Pirates?......... they burn kill and fight for fishes

Six dead in clash between fishermen
ANDREAS HARSONO
The Nation

JAKARTA, Wednesday 8 April 1998 -- An armed conflict involving Thai and Indonesian fishermen in Indonesian waters recently left six people, five Indonesians and a Thai, dead, police said Tuesday.

Indonesian authorities arrested 89 Thais for their part in the fracas during which the rivals rammed each other.

Lt Col Tato Suprapto of the Central Kalimantan police office said the Thais are likely to be charged with illegally entering Indonesia, forging ship documents and unauthorised fishing in Indonesian waters.

''Those are obviously foreign ships, judging from their Thai crew and the Thai characters printed on their sides, but the documents show they are Indonesian ships. We sense some forgeries,'' said Suprapto who was involved in the March 30 operation to arrest the seven vessels and the 89 Thais.

Witnesses and police officers said tension began to emerge in February when scores of Indonesian fishermen in the area, whose major port is Pangkalanbun, about 400 kilometres southwest of the Central Kalimantan capital of Palangka Raya, complained about Thai trawlers in their waters.

More than 100 Thai trawlers were reportedly seen in the Java Strait, which divides the major island of Java and Kalimantan, as well as in the Karimata Strait, which divides Kalimantan and Sumatra.

''Our fishermen are finding it hard to earn a living. They cannot compete with the Thais who use trawling nets for fishing,'' said one Indonesian fisherman.

Trawling, or ''pukat harimau'' in Bahasa Indonesia, involves one or two boats towing a very large net. Fish enter the net through the mouth and are forced to the other end which is made of a smaller mesh. The size of the mesh is controlled by law so that undersized fish can swim through unharmed.

But many fishermen in southeast Asia ignore the regulation. Trawling finally catches not only big fish but also smaller and younger ones. Environmentalists argue the practice has destroyed the sustainability of the salt water ecology. Indonesia, the largest archipelago in the world, is among a few countries which has banned trawling.

The Palangka Raya-based Pelita Pembangunan daily, which intensively covered the case, reported the Thai vessels were in fact first seen in June last year. They were apparently looking for tuna which are in abundance in the waters.

In a bid to turn away the foreign fishermen, Indonesian police, navy officers and the fishermen moved to the area on Feb 26, using some tow boats, and tried to arrest the Thais.

But the Thais, with their more powerful ships, reportedly resisted and even tried to run into the smaller Indonesian boats. ''We had to fire some warning shots,'' said Suprapto. A stray bullet killed one of the Thais, Captain Chuay Sayuth of the Mitra-16 ship.

The incident, instead of having a calming effect, increased the hostility between the Thais and the Indonesians.

The Thais moved away from the area for some time and then began striking back.

Three weeks later, the drama entered a new phase when an exhausted Indonesian fisherman told police some Thai fishermen had attacked and burned his traditional boat, severely beat five of his friends and threw them into the sea.

Syahminin, however, managed to stay afloat for four days before being rescued by another Indonesian boat. He was taken to hospital. The other five were believed to have drowned.

''Apparently the Thais wanted to take revenge,'' said Suprapto, adding the killing of the five Indonesians had prompted the Central Kalimantan police to seek assistance from the Jakarta police headquarters, which sent patrol ships to the Natuna islands off the Singapore coast and arrested seven Thai trawlers on March 30.

Indonesian regional expert Dewi Fortuna Anwar stressed the need for both governments to step up patrols and to solve the problem. ''We don't want our bilateral relations with Thailand to be damaged by this incident,'' she said.

Anwar said the Indonesian government should protect its waters and fishermen. She suggested Jakarta seize the Thai ships like the Australians do when Indonesian boats get caught in Australian waters.

None of the 89 Thais speak English or Bahasa Indonesia which makes investigation impossible. They are now being detained on their respective vessels anchored inside an Indonesian naval base in Kumai, about 12 km from Pangkalanbun.

Thailand's ambassador to Indonesia, Somphand Kokilanon, said on Monday he had not heard anything about the incident but for a modest account from his wife, who speaks Bahasa Indonesia, who saw a television news report of the incident.

''The embassy has not been involved yet but is prepared to cooperate with the Indonesian authorities,'' Somphand said.

He said in the past he had warned fishing authorities in Bangkok about the danger of fishing in alien waters and that they should go to Indonesia to discuss the problem with their Indonesian counterparts.

Suprapto said only the captains, the mechanics and the communications operators of the ships will be held, while the rest of the crews will be deported. The police are still waiting for immigration officials and a translator to question the Thais.

Wellydeckhand