Peoples Foiler :aeroSKIFF™ / M4

I wouldn't dare call it a "people's" boat if it sells over ten grand including tax and freight... what is the projected cost per unit? At an 8-10% margain as most companies in any field try to achieve as a minimum, $10k per skiff would still take almost 500 boats to break even. Your manufacturing costs would have to be under seven grand per finished boat to meet this. And that's assuming people will buy a $10k skiff- that's still pretty pricey. Can you do it?

 

Peoples Foiler- aeroSKIFF 14

I think it's possible but I don't think the "Peoples Foiler" limit is $10,000 for an easy to sail, first class foiler with the features this boat will have.

 

What's your target price? If you're trying to bring foiling to the masses, then price more than anything will determine how people react to what is, to most sailors and the general public, a pretty radical boat.

 

Doug, I am so excited that my latest project, the trimaran with planing amas was launched yesterday and in 18 knots of wind achieved 29 knots on the GPS. This is a factor of 1.6 times wind speed. This was on day one and I have a huge amount to learn about the boat. We did not even have the asymmetric kite on board and we were on a true beam reach when we hit our maximum speed.
I now have a prototype, which has cost me about $7000 Australian.
From this I will be talking to a composites engineer to look at how best to produce the components in a mixture of glass and carbon and naturally full epoxy construction. I expect to have to do one more prototype in slightly different materials as my vaka is monocoque 2mm marine plywood, and this will be unsuitable for mass production. I hope to be able to get a two person 18ft. boat on the market here for around $15000 Australian.
What do you think of MY business plan?

 

Doug, I think I asked about one year agoe: Why don't you just build one boat, a prototype????

 

Raggi, I agree with you 100%. Dougs reluctance to build a 14ft. (actual size) prototype even in exterior plywood and use his existing rig, existing hydrofoils; I understand he owns two sets, is absolutely crazy! No investor, even a lunatic will finance a boat based on smooth talking only!

 

Peoples Foiler-aeroSKIFF 14

Matt, the boat should cost under $15,000 ,depending on options,school etc.
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Raggi,we have a prototype development program described in a previous couple of posts. Building a single one off version of this boat will not happen as we would not learn what we need to know. I've already built sailed and foiled a 16' foiler prototype and am building a 17 footer for my own use :
Trapwing 14-High Performance 14' Keelboat(SDB)-Final Design Conception - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12131
The 17 will use most of the technology on the aeroSKIFF 14 plus much that is entirely new including a movable ballast system. Much has been learned from the 16 and will be learned from the 17. The 17 is using the same foil system used on the 16 and most of the parts from the 16. It is simply impractical to build an accurate "one off" of the fourteen without proper funding since to properly test it requires that the prototype is as close to the final boat as possible. That requires lots of new tooling albeit "quicky" tooling and lots of money to do right.
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Prototype development plan from previous post:
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I'm relatively satisfied with the hull design but the rig, foils, sliding seat, weight equalization system , pods and control systems need experimentation and refinement. Of those the hull design , engineering, quicky tooling and the carbon mast and boom tooling will be the most expensive.In the business plan I think the estimate was around $120,000 to get the completed design and structural engineering from Eric, one set of quickie molds(suitable for a few parts), two complete hulls, decks, pods etc.,custom carbon masts and unique wishbone booms with up to 10 rig iterations to be tried(designed and engineered by Eric and built by a production composites mast builder). This included work from Barry Spanier on sail design with at least 10 different sails. This amount included us full time for a specific
time and included something like four months of two boat testing BEFORE being ready for production tooling. This was not conceived of as backyard project but as a first class development
plan to be funded properly or not at all. It requires that not only do we have a committment for the extensive(and methodical) development of two sailing prototypes and the time for testing but that we have the funding from that point to a fully functioning business including patent protection on developments that merit it.(This amount is approximately triple the prototype development costs).
Eric and I don't have the funds to do it ourselves and we don't consider a less ambitious version of the project to be worthwhile. The result of pursuing this course of action may be no boat at all or it may be one of the most outstanding new dinghy foilers ever built.All or nothing-done right or not at all.....

 

Rule no 1. keep the story consistent!

Doug, you have posted pics of your Aerofoiler 16 and you have described some of flaws in this design. You have donated the hull to a wind surfing school sans foils and rig.
Then we had the "trapwing" keelboat for your own personal use which you said unequivocally was not the basis for the much vaunted "Peoples Foiler".

Then you described the dimensions and attributes of the next prototype of the "Peoples Foiler", as recently again as yesterday.
From memory, overall length 14' 8" and increased in overall beam to 12'.

QUOTE- Doug Lord:

I've already built sailed and foiled a 16' foiler prototype and am building a 17 footer for my own use :
Trapwing 14-High Performance 14' Keelboat(SDB)-Final Design Conception - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12131
The 17 will use most of the technology on the aeroSKIFF 14 plus much that is entirely new including a movable ballast system. Much has been learned from the 16 and will be learned from the 17. The 17 is using the same foil system used on the 16 and most of the parts from the 16. It is simply impractical to build an accurate "one off" of the fourteen without proper funding.

OK. then. We can all agree that this is your quote. The "fourteen" will not be built without proper funding. We can accept that, although most would argue that a prototype would need to come from the production tooling. Even the very succesful Ian Farrier, built plywood prototypes of his "trailer tri" in his backyard to prove that primarily his new folding system was safe and reliable, and that he had a viable alternative to trailable and slow monohulls at that time.

Suddenly you announce that you are building a "seventeen" based on the lessons learned from the now obsolete Aerofoil 16.
Please explain how it will be possible to build a prototype of the 17, which will further prove the concept you have, and hopefully attract investor funding, when building the 14 as a single prototype is not possible without proper outside funding?
AM I STUPID? as I don't get it!

 

Peoples Foiler-aeroSKIFF 14

The Trapwing 17(described under the Trapwing 14 thread) is the boat I'm building next for myself.The boat will be built as inexpensively as possible using many of the most expensive items from it's predecessor. It is not ,necessarily, a prototype as there are no plans to produce it.I will use it to explore the feasibility of extremely high performance sailing with a "sit in" boat concept that is self righting. It is not designed to attract investor funding-though having it around won't hurt; it is purely experimental and for my personal use. Some of the technology to be used on the aeroSKIFF 14 will be used on the 17 such as hydrofoils(for off the wind foiling only initially), some aspects of the 14 hydrofoil control system and wishbone boom with mid boom sheeting. Most of the 17 technology is HIGHLY experimental including a 20° canting keel tied to a movable ballast wing system.
We have a plan to develop the aeroSKIFF14 into a production boat-should we secure the proper funding- and that includes building two pre production prototypes and extensive ,full time two boat testing prior to the construction of production tooling. Building a single "prototype" is just throwing a little money at some big problems with a guarantee of not providing the information we need on refining the concept to a world class level suitable for production. To do that would be spinning our wheels in the face of a properly funded, carefully thought out, two boat pre-production prototype program .

 

So your old boat did foil well enough to give you a solid base of experience for sailing and design?

Cool! Well done!

Can we see the pics, videos and third-party accounts of the old boat foiling that you're going to show to your potential investors, to prove to them how well it worked? We'll all have to eat a lot of humble pie, of course.

Given that there were at least four boats (Paterson, Ward, Windrush, Prowler) involved in creating the succesful Moth foiler, and guys as experienced as the Bethwaites build about four prototypes to create a new design even in the well-known area of skiff building (Frank built 20 HSPs in 20 years and still didn't create a practical production machine), it's a tribute to you that you will be able to get into production with a ground-breaking craft with just two pre-production prototypes. Well done!

 

Peoples Foiler-aeroSKIFF 14

The 16 was a learning experience; it used a foil control system entirely different than the one on the new boat. Very little foiling experience from the 16 but enough to know that the foils were excellent and they'll be used again with a different control system .
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Gee thanks, CT249! Wow what a change you've gone thru and what courage you have to make such a change. I remember the old days; the early days of the debate on whether foils should be legal on the old Moth forum. How against foilers you were. How sure you were that they would never be able to sail around a course much less win a regatta. How development was the bane of everything good in sailing. How sure you were that if foils were made legal close racing would go down the tubes. And now, courageously recognizing your own lack of foresight back then, you have given the aeroSKIFF 14 project the highest compliment. In a world rife with sarcasm,ridicule,insincerity and downright obnoxious behaviour on forums you come thru like a bright shining light bringing your unique brand of insight to bear on the aeroSKIFF 14 and giving the most coveted kind of encouagement.
You've brought the highest level of journalistic excelence to your own personal battle with foiling and the change shown in your previous post is extraordinary. You must surely be one of the worlds most astute observers!
I can't thank you enough: it means so much and is so very, very relevant.

 

Actually, by July 19, 2004 at 9:22 a.m., I posted on the IMCA forum that I was "thinking of turning the old scow into a foiler if the CB case will take it".

So it's rubbish to say I was pushing for a foiler ban.

I'm sure I never said foilers would not be able to sail around a course since they already had.

I'm pretty damn sure I never said they couldn't win a regatta.

I never said that development was the bane of everything in sailing. I did point out that excessive development has hurt many a class and maybe that should be taken into consideration. I own and race in three development classes.

I DID say that history indicates that foilers may not necessarily make the class more popular. The jury is still out.

I DID point out that it was wrong to say "if the class doesn't develop much it will die" because Moths that don't develop much (ie British Moths, Europes, US and French Classic Moths, NZ Moths and scow Moths) are actually vastly more popular than the modern Moth. They still are.

I DID point out that the idea of a pro racing circuit for foilers was unlikely to be as succesful as the 18 Footer pro racing circuit (which died) or the windsurfer pro racing circuit (which died for some time, as far as course racing went). The pro foiler circuit certainly has yet to prove itself.

I DID point out that the class has banned things in the past (catamarans, traps, sliding planks, tunnel hulls, windsurfers) and therefore there WAS a precedent that could be followed. That was correct and it is still the case.

I DID point out that while foiling may be great fun, other things that are great fun in sailing (ie wavejumping or other jumps on windsurfers) were not as popular as "normal" sailing. That is still the case.

I DID point out that the claim that development classes have to develop was incorrect and can never change rules to ban developments was incorrect, as many development classes including the Moth have banned many things in the past (pumping, cats, traps, etc).

I merely pointed out some factual errors in the pro-foiler case - just as I have pointed out here some errors in the anti-foiling case and have said that the foiling Moth is now probably the world's fastest singlehanded mono (counting boards), that it can (in the right conditions) beat world-class 49ers, and that the weed isn't such a major problem because even Laser Radials catch weed.

As a Moth owner (unlike you) whose first-ever boat was a Moth (with all that means in feeling for the class) I obviously had a perfect right to correct factual errors made by some people in class forums.

And the non-foilers were not a tiny minority a few years back - Moth class polls showed that in 2001, 52 Mothies would NOT consider foils, versus 42 who would. In 2002, it was 17 to 12 in favour of the "Yes" crowd. It's not as if those not falling over to get foilers were rare.

 

Oly Foilers

So somebody wants to put foilers in the Olympics?

Well, be glad the wheels turn, oh so slowly in the IOC, as the probable conditions for the next Olympics are going to be nothing short of, shall we say.... interesting. Read this report from the dry run regatta that is going on right now at Qingdao Olympic Sailing Center and project the realities for a bunch of high strung foilers getting thumped around in these conditions. Kinda makes the argument about Rohan's sore knee at the World's look prety much moot:

COMMENTS FROM QINGDAO
* Carrie Howe for Team Seven Sailing, USA Yngling: What is it they say?
Be careful what you wish for! We've been wishing for wind and we got it
this morning - twentyfive knots of breeze, waves and huge swells. These
were lively conditions to say the least. They were so lively that
seasickness became a potential problem for some of the US team members
as they rocked and rolled, waiting for the first start gun at 1300
hours. Before we left the dock it was pouring. The breeze was awesome
and we were excited. We had action even before we left the dock,
securing the tents we use for our waterfront preparations before they
blew away. Then more adrenalin on the water as we checked out the
conditions in monster swells that must have been half the height of our
mast.

It stayed that way from 0600 until noon when the wind died completely
and we were left rolling and slamming around in the leftover swell and
waves. Adding to that, the current was ripping and making it impossible
to stay near the race committee without a tow from our coach boat. From
noon on, we had a four-hour wait for conditions to improve. Several US
team members had problems with seasickness and it was pretty well
impossible to stay in the boats in those conditions. We bailed out and
got into the rigid inflatable coach boat and took the Yngling in tow.
I've been searching for a metaphor to sum up the situation today. I
guess it's like getting suited up and psyched up for an ice hockey match
or figure skating, only to find that the rink has melted. No fun, that's
for sure.

 

Slow on the uptake

Actually, Doug, I see nothing of recognition in the post. Instead i see a guy who is using the wonderful dance of sarcasm to illuminate your inability to produce a proper prototype to measure-up to all the unlimited hype.

Your own attempt at sarcasm was, in fact, rather poorly worded in response and the result is that you look to be all dewy-eyed with personal satisfaction when there's none to be had.

Geez, Doug, what would this take... perhaps six sheets of 3mm marine ply, about 25 yards of 6 oz. glass, a proper multichine design and that awesome rig and foil set you squirreled away. Or, you could go it nicely with a set of forms and a whole pile of strips. Surely you can muster-up that tiny bit of materials to bang out this wonder boat of yours?

Come on Bubba, get your butt into the garage and get busy. The world is waiting for the purest inspiration from your crystal clear vision. Show us that a tired old bag of air can actually build a boat.

 

Hi Doug, please, please refer to my posting regarding your severe case of OCD