Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

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  1. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Brent Swain Member

    One 36 footer, after finishing a circumnavigation, had engine mount cracks. The engine mounts were welded to the hull plate only, over a 18 inch length, with nothing to connect them to the centreline, nor to spread them out. I hear Evan builds them this way. The design calls for the engine mounts to be welded to a six foot wide web , running almost to the chines and across the centreline.
    I can only advise how to do it, I can't force builders to do what the design calls for , just like keel supports.
    I don't blame Roberts for the abortion in Sechelt , nor Colvin for the abortions Foulkes palgerised his Saugeen witch design for.
    I am unaware of any skeg weld failures, or corrosion problems there.
     
  2. TomThumb28
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    TomThumb28 Junior Member

    Umm, so going over all the edges and knocking the slag off manually and then going over them again with a grinder after the hull is fitted up is faster and somehow better than grinding them in the first place? Or are you conceding that you don't grind edges? A while ago you were arguing that the slag was beneficial because it left a root gap (which is also bunk since any gap would be inconsistant.) You need to work on getting your story straight.

    I've seen people good enough with a torch to leave a remarkably smooth cut with very little slag but not slag free. In any case your work as shown in the video isn't even remotely close to being in the same league.

    I know you think you're making a clever point here but you're not. It's not considered improper to let a steel boat rust (to a point) during construction. It is considered improper procedure not to grind plate edges. I'm willing to bet all edges on that boat were dressed properly.

    Nobody is criticizing any of that stuff, they're criticizing your hull design and construction methods. Another red herring trying to distract from the real issues at hand.
     
  3. LyndonJ
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

     
  4. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    You were a labourer at Mainland(Vancouver site) and no one offered you anything in 1983. The conveyor sections for Tumbler Ridge were done in early 1983, there was nothing expected in the future - tough economic times - and just as the sections were complete, we went on strike(United Steelworkers). I should say "they went on strike", as I moved on.

    What I find hard to follow is how/when you served an apprenticeship as a steel fabricator - "detail fabricator" - or became a certified welder(a prerequisite for doing UT welds). You often state that you've been off sailing & building boats from your mid-twenties, until now. You also mention that you were a brake press operator. But, then I trip over stuff like this:

    Steel yacht construction post #39

    I first headed offshore singlehanded for New Zealand at the ripe old age of 23, after having worked at only labourers jobs since I was 19. I've been cruising 11 months a year since my mid twenties. That is where my way of doing things has gotten me. How long did it take you to get similarly semi retired? That defines your qualifications to advise people how to get off the treadmill and out cruising.
    Brent


    Trying to play "Mike Johns" off against Dudley Dix & others is a misnomer. I'm a big fan of Dix's designs and remember that he uses structural bulkheads & partial bulkheads with his "non-transverse framed" boats, when/where required. The difference between them, and you & I, is that they know when, where and what support is needed, we don't. The difference between you and I is that I admit that I don't know and am trying to learn. There are no short cuts in life.
     
  5. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Seems like you are the sucker:confused: and this answer just shown your lack of intelligence re steel boats.

    Over the years you had only read and see in all my posts and replies (and others) what you want to see to use in your snake oil marketing methods to make you the big fly on the **** pile....

    I intentionally lets the hull "rust" after being put together and welded. If it is dry season, I helped the process by spraying it with water.
    Since you do not understand quality, this is to let the mill scale on the plate oxidizes and hence your "rust". In this condition the plate is easier to shot blast since the mill scale is hard and difficult to blast off. Again, you would not understand this as you never blasted boats you built and effect, you are selling/building rust buckets.

    Don't come to me with your shitty idea of pre-primed plates. That is crap for varies reasons.
    First of all, over coat times - the primer has to be painted over within a set period of time. Secondly, compatibility - very few salesman will tell you what primer was used on the plates and one must stay with the same brand for proper bonding.
    Thirdly, what the point when you weld it again, grind the welds and just touch up by hand - now that is crappy work - every weld on that pre-primed plate is a weak link in the paint system. The only way to overcome that is to shotblast the areas welded/grind and respray the SAME primer over again.

    Lastly Brent, I have no problems posting samples of my work since I know it is quality work and Im not ashamed to share it with others, in fact, I even has quite a bit in my gallery for the world to see.
    Why don't you post some of your work under construction?
    We have all seen the photos (lucky to have these pics since you are all talk and no decency to post pics yourself) of crap you produced and use as a showcase to market your snake oil ideas, and still you had the audacity to defend that **** as perfect and criticized others that knew better. No way one can give a dead man medicine....:rolleyes:

    Talking about dead, stop making a fool of yourself and as I had said before, winners know when to stop. Apparently, since you are a loser, you do not care if you are on a suicide mission with your marketing and perhaps that is the better for all. How many potential customers do you think shy away from you after reading these posts?? There are already over the 80,000 views of this thread and counting.
    As for those that believe your snake oil salesman talk and defenses here; you deserve each other.
     
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  6. junk2lee
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    junk2lee Junior Member

    ahh,if I might interject on Brent's behalf,seeing as he is offline,I think Brent and likely anyone who's been near a steel boat a-building knows that rust on building hulls is ok,although the actual post is maybe not so clear:

    but anyways
    for the benefit of the peanut gallery,some pix of a building boat rust1.jpg rusty

    rust2sandblast.jpg sandblasted and primed?

    rust3gone.jpg painted
     
  7. larry larisky

    larry larisky Previous Member

    beside posting for brent only in the origami thread, do you find something interresting in this forum?, or you are just a go-between rather ennoying.

    just asking.
     
  8. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Originally Posted by Brent Swain
    Boy, that hulk Wynand posted was sure a pile of rust, Who would pay anymore than scrap value for such a rusty hulk. Can you imagine anyone actually sailing such a rusty hulk? They'd be covered in rust in no time! What kind of sucker would buy such a rusty boat.




    Before this goes further, allow me to explain that in his comment Brent is actually taking a shot at me, not Wynand. He's taking one part of a comment I made regarding Alex's boat - that'd it had been dragged, while only tacked together in many places, across a field, where it sat for a couple of years, uncovered - Of course, my comment was tied in with pointing out many other issues.

    To be honest, I don't agree with leaving a hull that has unprimed welds, flame-cut edges, out in a field for a couple of years, with puddles of rain water in it's hull sides, & keels. We've had this discussion in another thread, back in 2008? I suggested that the very least that should be done would be to give it some protection, if the plan was to let it sit there for a long time. It was a poorly constructed orphan, at that point.

    To Brent & his buddies, These "discussions" are much like a chess match, or war, where each comment from each side is a move of strategy. He/They don't "get" that this is not about sides, it is not a dick measuring contest, it is not about who wins. He/They don't see any value in honesty, only appearance of honesty, much like a corrupt politician(?). If he/they can discredit one who criticises his/their quality of work, knowledge, etc., he/they believe that that critic's comments - no matter how valid - will be viewed as discredited.

    "junk2lee" gives a couple of examples of this, when commenting on how I type my posts. He wants other readers to view the words I use, or how I structure my sentences, as "different" to the norm, therefore, not acceptable. I saw a similar example of this on the origamiboats site, when "dskira" tried to reason with them and they responded with insults of his way of typing and of his designs. Pathetic!

    Appreciate that this - Boatdesign.net - is a different world. Here, you have people who "know". If one comes to this site with some incorrect belief, those who "know" correct their belief, sometimes politely, sometimes less so. Despite having my ears pinned back a few times, that's what I like about these forums. But if Brent can snag a member who is new to boat design and/or steel work and/or steel boat building, from here or another forum, spin his notions(philosophy) of the perfect boat and bohemian lifestyle, he has a new customer/recruit.

    If you are genuinely interested in learning more about boat design & construction, junk2lee, hang around. After a while, the brain-washing wears off & you learn one hell of a lot. It worked/is working for me. Blind loyalty, however, doesn't work here.

    Mike
     
  9. junk2lee
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    junk2lee Junior Member

    ahhh,I would ask you to click on your own user-name,and then go down the list and choose"view all posts"....the pot calling the kettle black and shall we leave it at that?
     
  10. junk2lee
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    junk2lee Junior Member

    ahhh,well,I wouldn't know where to start in all that..it speaks for itself- but I agree there is a lot of baggage on this thread.I clicked your name and....well,honsestly,I got lost on this older thread.Deja-vu!
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/welding-skin-frames-demystified-24066-11.html
     
  11. junk2lee
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    junk2lee Junior Member

    I have a question I hope is pertinent.This a quote from Brent

    BS reply

    Stability:
    I have a model of the 31 foot twin keeler made of 3/16th plywood for
    the hull and 1/8th inch plywood for the decks and cabin giving the
    model the same vertical centre of gravity as the full sized shell. I
    gave it the same ballast ratio as the full sized boat in lead,and the
    equivalent sized mast in fir.
    In water I found it extremely difficult to get it to stay upside
    down . If I placed it very carefully upside down on totally calm water
    it stayed that way briefly. With the slightest disturbance, a half
    inch ripple for example, it would snap upright instantly.Waves big
    enough to capsize a boat wouldn't dissappear as soon as they'd done
    their dirty work, and the sea become instantly calm.
    If I tried , however, to place the boat down at an angle of say 5
    degrees, it would right itself instantly.
    This example is just a shell. The full sized cruising yacht would
    have much greater righting ability, as 90% of the stowage in the boat
    is well below the waterline.
    As Bruce Roberts has well stated,everything below the centre of
    buoyancy in a loaded cruising boat counts as ballast ratio as long as
    it's well secured.

    My question is about models in a static test ....If a model is made as described,and is to scale in all weights and dimensions as to the real-life,does it or does it not predict stability in the general sense of the design considered?I appreciate there are many finepoints even including surface tension of water(dish-detergent might fix this!) and it can't really be seen as a "sailing predictor" exactly but just as to "stability" given that the model has cg and cb in the right spot...If not,why not?
     
  12. LyndonJ
    Joined: May 2008
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

    Yep that would be perfectly valid, you could even hook a spring scale to the keel or mast to pull it over to different angles to get a GZ curve.
     
  13. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member


    If a model is made as described,and is to scale in all weights and dimensions as to the real-life,



    how can the model be made to scale without a lines plan ?
     
  14. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    send that model & lines plan to the Wolfson institute, or other test facility
     

  15. LyndonJ
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

    Same as the full size, snip snip and pull the edges together then it defines it's own shape more or less. Give or take a bit depending on the elasticity of the sheet material.

    But the problem is the Centre of mass for both the real thing and the model. Without weights and moments.................
     
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