Origami steel yacht construction

Here's a tip top BS 36 for sale

http://www.islandyachtsales.ca/sailboats/Manotic/Manotic.htm

After all the hard work and an inferior crappy hull and forking out all your $$$ for the plans , the book, the video then the material then the Brent then The joiner and all the rest of the things that make a boat and you sell it for what !!!
You can't even sell them for $35k USD. You'd have to be loco to buy the Origamai BS artists line. And lets talk todays prices not what someone who was ripped off paid 10 years ago.

But remember if you cant see the problems they don't exist.
Except when it comes to trying to get out of the BS and into something better, then the problem is very visible.

Now here's another torture test, it's a ULDB class 40, washed up half buried pounded away on the beach every high tide till it was pulled off. Guess what.......... it was fine, and there's a zillion other examples of similar 'torture' tests in what BS recons are incredibly weak boats.

Also funny how a lot of these 36s seem to end up with big dents in them, could do with some frames

 

Absolutely agree 100% With Wynand and everyone else too. There's only one person in support of BS now and that's BS.

Whomp Whomp Whomp and I was going Tick tick tick trying to teach him about fatigue

I was going to go over more of the crap in BS's book but It's not really necessary now. But his enginering arguments are just the same quality as his boatbuilding and economics

 

QUOTE
by B S
Chines are each as tough as the centreline. Support the mast off the chines and you have twice the strength of supporting it off the centreline, as there are two chines , but only one centreline.

 

I've been arguing that for years on the yahoo group. In fact if you look at the MOM photos you'll see a lot of tabs welded to the hull because there's nowhere to attach the interior. They were all added after the hull was pulled together and not included in Brent's time line. With a framed boat, the frames are where you attach transverse bulkheads and from those you attach the longitudinal structures for berths, settees etc. I pre-drilled all my frames with 7mm holes on 100mm centres while the individual frame segments could be placed under the drill press so I shouldn't need to drill many holes when I get to the interior. In theory. Sure it took time but drilling holes by hand inside the shell in limited space takes a lot longer.

The 2 advantages I see for the origami method are first, you can get by with some very sloppy layout and fitup. Anyone who doesn't believe me is urged to buy the DVD set and watch for yourself. Brent is quite correct in saying that there's a lot less welding to do on the hull plating, too.

The second advantage is, if you're working in the open with limited time available, it would seem possible to get the hull weathertight faster than a framed boat. This would minimise the opportunities for rust etc to start working against you. Depending on your climate and access to facilities, this could be a big advantage. Myself, I just built a big shed first, but then I own my own property.

The downside is that it's going to take longer to fit the interior and, as per plans, you end up with a heavier and structurally inferior boat for the same displacement.

WRT some of the welds in the Alex/Brent DVD, you need to keep in mind that Brent was using what looks like E4111 rods. You'll never get a really nice looking weld appearance from those, they're an all position deep penetration fast-freeze rod, cellulose flux. Structurally, they're great and there's minimal chance of slag inclusions because the slag is in essence burnt paper. I never use anything else for my root runs but the rods have become uncommon, at least around here, and I need to get my local welding shop to special-order the 2.5mm ones I use. Wynand is using a MIG welder and in his hands, he's getting results that make me envious, with undoubtedly a huge time saving. In my hands I'd prefer my E4111 rods and an angle grinder. I plan on swapping to MIG when I start on my hull plate and I'll be doing a lot of trial runs on scrap before I do the plate.

PDW

 

Mom used 500 tabs to fit hthe interior because it was make work project for Evan .I used about 35 for all my interior bulkheads bunk tops counter tops etc. and about a dozen for the paneling.
Maybe the steel industry should stop x-raying welds,when there are people who can tell the exact tensile strength of a weld , not by simply looking at the weld , but by looking at a photo of it.
Over here we call them E 6011, and they are the only rod that will penetrate deeply. They are far more forgiving of welding conditions than any other rod , but due to their quick freeze up rate , leave a rougher looking finish. They are also greast for welding in a deep corner. The combination of deep penetration and light easily removed slag makes dealing with deep corners far easier. Their tensile strength is rated at 60,000 psi . 11 is the freezing rate.
The tabs had a 45 ground on the front of them, for full weld penetration.
I hads a freind who was buildig a framelesCowichan bay and puled together a 36 foot hull, decks , wheelhouse, cockpit, keel, rudder and skeg. Then I wend back to Sidney to visit him agfainn and he ad the shed built and wa starting on the ouside frames. So I sailed to Cowicahan bay againd and finished all the detail work on the 36 ,. Then I sailed to Sidney again and the builder of the Van de Stadt had only the hull plates in place, but hadnt weld d them yet. That is a good comparison of the time involved. One of my 36 footers, well finished sold in Frisco Bay for over$ 100,000 US. Another in the North of Scotland sold for $150,000 US. The Shinola, on the back cover of my book, recently sold for $95,000 CDN.
Most sell for around $65,000 to $75,000, several times what they cost their owners to build.. The more you pend on a boat the narrower the gap betwen what you can get for her and what you spent on her in the first place, until spending more becomes a money losing proposition.

I don't see your point in posting the picture of that black boat. Once I have sold someone the plans, I have no control over how they put it together or what standard of workmanship they use or don't use. Any design can be screwed up regardless of how careful the designer is. I could easily post abortions of Mike's designs, built by inmcompetent amateurs ,but they haven't been sailing this far from Tazzy. I fact I have yet to hear of any of his designs sailing here. Mine are known around the world , none of the self proclaimed Expert designers here have had any of their designs show up in this area.
Foulkes plagerised Colvins saugeen witch for years, back in the 70's ,ten guage hulls, welded outside only ,with most of the welds ground off, to make it look more "Professional". No weld on the inside, sprayfoam over millscale, etc etc. He now builds his Foulkes 39's the same way, with white plastic thu hulls you can snap of with the palm of your hand, fuel tank vents in the topsides, where they go under water when the boat heels. Alex had one of the Saugeem Witches in his yard for a while, as cramped as a broom closet., the bottom as springy as 1/4 inch plywood, .It was a freebee, given away, so does that make the value of all Colvin's boats zero? The owner eventually abandoned it.
There is a Robets 35 in Sechelt which looks like a bucket which got caught in a buffalo stampede. The welds are more slag than metal . I guess that must all be Bruce Robert's fault, according to theories presented here!

 

Frames make dents far more likely, by giving the plate a hard point to stretch against. That is why charter businesses in ther Dutch canals likie framless boats . The dents simply spring back out.

Sure doesn't look like 8 ft surf in that photo. Doesn't look anything like the surf in the photo of the brent boat on the beach, and deep water looks a whole lot closer. Few light fibreglass boats survived the disaster in Cabo in 82. One steel hull, with only 2x1/4 flatbar frames, was used as a battering ram by a fibreglas 40 footer which destroyed itself, without the steel hull suffering anything more than a few dents and a trashed interior.
I wonder how that boat would make out T-boning a steel barge at 8 knots.

 

Please do not talk ******** about things you know nothing.

I assure you the really good naval architects(*) have much higher percentage of ADD than the average population. A well-compensated ADD can comprehend much more than an average person, work as fast as lightning while double and triple checking every calculation more thoroughly than you could imagine.

*: or the elite of any profession where serious brain work is done

 

"I wonder how that boat would make out T-boning a steel barge at 8 knots."

You refer to this one a lot. This kind of accident would of been reported to Transport Canada, could you provide a link to the incident report, location,time, and year it happen. Just curious

 

No,not "Would have".And "Could have" is a slight "maybe"...Who would report it?If no real harm done,the tugboat master would not unless the sailboat or the barge was BADLY damaged.A barge can get plenty of worse punishment.
And the tugmaster may not even know a sailboat hit his barge...
Likewise,why would the sailboat report it unless trying to claim for severe damage that was not their fault....Neither combatant would take on the DOT without really really good reason.

 

Ha ha ha, you are totally naive if you think that. Get some alloy cooking foil stretch it over the top of a coffee mug and tape the edges. Now tap the foil, drop a thumb drive on it, hit it with a teaspoon whatever turns you on. Noticed that it doesn't dent ? Keep repeating that until you do realize it.

Ok take another bit a little bit bigger than the coffee cup diameter form it maybe with a spoon or a finger until it's got a nice curvature dome shape. Drop a peanut on it ...whoa it dented. Tap it with the teaspoon ........ whoa a revelation ....it collapsed .

Your whole framelessness thing is total rubbish. You make it heaps stronger and less likely to dent or collapse with restraining frames. Enough people who actually understand this have explained that to you, in these two threads. Why can't you get that simple fact into your conciousness is it a left brain right brain thing where you have a blockage

I posted the pic of the GRP boat on the beach to show that your marketing is meaningless. Only repeatable demonstrations have any value.

I Know how your boat would go T boning a concrete harbor wall. Or being dragged over 300m of quarry boulders by a D9 or being dropped 12 feet from a crane onto hard packed sand or concrete. Put your tall marketing tales away and talk about some testable repeatable claims.

I can't beleive you are arguing that those welds are good. Gee wiz words fail to describe what a total backyard abortion your boatbuilding is. Run to a an apprentice welder in his first week on the job and beg him to give you some lessons since you don't appear to be able to read any basic guides.

Your boats dent real easy where thos amazing phenominally strong conic sections and magic longitudinals are, That's the point of the other pics.

 

I am starting to get bored of this thread. What about starting a new one, with some clear rules? I think this discussion could be conducted in a way which could be beneficial to everyone.
I think about rules like:
- No name calling.
- Everyone talks about the same boat. I guess 45 ft would fall into the category of which Brent tells us is within the realm of origami, and others say it isn't. I would be happy to draw a basic hull of that size, and I guess we should give Brent the opportunity to replace it with his own drawing.
- All arguments should be backed by calculations. If one believes there is an area of physics involved which we don't know enough about, a scientific publication stating that fact should be cited. When referring to historical data, adequate statistics which prove the point, or scientific analysis of isolated events should be shown. (e.g. not just stating that this and that boat T boned, but also compute the forces involved and show ho the structure coped with them)
- Keep the discussion in the realm of origami boats. (It is my understanding that no one denies that origami boats could be built adequately, just some say that some framing is necessary to achieve it.)

if Brent and at least one opposing NA gives consent, I would be happy to start such a thread and draw up a "reference boat".

 

Magwas, I see you are a relative newbie and I your point presented should be a noble idea, BUT, you do not know BS as the "old" hands here.

Do you know how many threads in the past was clouded with what you had read here? Same old story, same old demolition derbies, same quantum theories etc etc by BS. Within the first few posts of your proposed thread he will be on board again with a repeat of his posts here, regardless of the rules you will lay down.

Do us a favour, don't do it, save us from another episode of the BS soapy. We've been there, done that and got T shirts to prove it.

If someone wants to build a frameless boat that builds fast and easily, I would recommend the v/d Stadt 34 or the Stadt 40. Well engineered and pleasant to look at.
I had built a few of the 34's and from scratch to welded hull ready for grit blasting took 18 working days on average inclusive of floors, stringers etc fitted

 

Yes, I am new here, but I did notice not just how BS behaves, but also how some NAs do nothing more than bashing others while being extra careful not to say anything factual or helpful.
And yes, I do not like it, and I think every opportunity should be given them to start behaving.

 

Magwas, I hear what you say, but lets be honest about things.

Many NA's engineers, fellow boat builders etc have tried to reason with BS in a very civilized over the years - and in this post - but made off as idiots by BS. Nobody it right except Mr Swain, regardless.

One of our most valuable and knowledgeable members, MikeJohns, a qualified structural engineer, has been very professional and patient with BS, trying to correct and reason with him to no avail, but to get shunned with bull **** from BS.
In fact, on many occasions he offered to do a structural analysis worth many $$$ for free and was made a fool by BS.

Even patient and well mannered people get on the negative after being rude to by someone and then just return the favour to sender.

 

My dear ole' Grandpa always used to say "everyone's entitled to their own opinion no matter how ridiculous it is!" His best advice was to ignore them entirely and maybe they'll go away. There's plenty of other totally oblivious people wandering aimlessly around this planet for them to run into who'll listen.