Opinion on Bateau Down East 25

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by MartinV, Aug 29, 2011.

  1. MartinV
    Joined: Jul 2011
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    Location: Netherlands

    MartinV Junior Member

    Hi guys,

    I would like to pose a question about the DE25 from Bateau (http://bateau.com/studyplans/DE25Cockpit_study.htm?prod=DE25Cockpit). But first I will explain what I am looking for in a boat and try to be as complete as possible.

    Where I want to sail (in the Netherlands that is) and at what speed:
    a) I want to sail in canals and on shallow lakes at (legally limited) speeds of around 4 kts in comfort (not wildley rocking about as another ship passes).
    b) I want to sail in larger, deeper lakes where speeds are (mostly) unlimited, but a top speed of 15-20 kts will do (in fair conditions).
    c) I want to sail to and from some offshore islands, which are separated from the mainland by mudflats (Wadden Sea). At low tides these will mostly dry up and one is bound by the faiways. At high tide (tidal differences up to 3m / 9ft) one can cross most of the mudflats with a draft up to 1m / 3ft. In between the islands themselves, there can be a strong tidal current and these areas are exposed to waves coming in from sea with northerly winds. When “island hopping” you can not always avoid these areas. Speeds are the same as mentioned above.

    Conditions in want to be able to safely sail in:
    In general up to 6-7 Bft. This will produce the following conditions in the areas mentioned above:
    a) very short waves up to 0,5m / 1-2 ft, with the risk of hitting the lakebed when making a navigation error
    b) short (3-5 sec), steep waves up to 1m / 3 ft
    c) roughly same as b), but some chaotic seas can develop with outgoing tide and inshore winds.

    Suffice it to say that these are conditions I am not seeking out to sail in, but I do not want to die in a bad weather boating accident when the weather turns evil unexpectedly, or be hoisted out of the sea by my former colleges and be their laughing stock.

    I do not mind to reduce speed in above mentioned conditions, but would like to maintain at least some form of forward motion (say 10 kts?) to reduce the exposure time to these conditions (at least for the passengers). I don’t want the boat to slam into the waves, but a pleasant sailing motion is ok.

    What I want the boat for:
    Day and multiple day cruises with a place to sleep and cook for 2, but able to take 4 on a day trip. A port-a-potti or a small head will do. A shower we will take in a harbour. It has to have a pilothouse, as an open boat is not suited for our climate. Then again, some room to leisure outside is more than welcome.

    Some other conditions I had in mind:
    Not a fuel guzzler (although I cannot provide figures, as I have no reference), safe, trailerable behind a tractor (my father in law collect old farming equipment, so ample tractors available), behind a car is not necessary (and besides, cars are a lot smaller here). Preferably inboard (stern drive?) engine, as outboards get stolen a lot here. Length around 7-8 m / 20-25 ft. I want to build it myself. I intend to build a little boat S&G style first next year to get some experience. I like the looks of workboats and classic boats (not so much these Bayliner things or one-in-a-dozen fair weather canal cruisers).

    Now, the Bateau DE25 seems to be just what I am looking for, but I would like your professional opinion if the design could take the wind and wave conditions I specified. I already asked and a stern drive is an option.

    For your imaging; I am a novice enthusiast and professional meteorologist and have sailed on the bigger ships of our navy (as a meteorologist). My experience with small boats is about 0.

    I hope you can shed some light on my question.
     
  2. keysdisease
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    keysdisease Senior Member

    I am not familiar with Bateau but I did take a close look at the link you provided. I am very familiar with the "down east" type hullform as I owned a Mainship 34 which uses this type hull. Typically this hullform means a very fine and deep forefoot (the V at the bow) to smooth entry into waves, hard chines (the turn aft from the bottom to the sides), shallow deadrise at the transom (almost a flat bottom at the aft end) and some length of keel to a full keel.

    This hull produces a smooth ride in the conditions and speeds you want to operate in. I see by the drawing that the plan includes spray rails which will help keep her dry going through wakes or a sea very nicely, and this type hull planes with little power.

    The keel may be problematic if you plan to "dry out" on the mud flats you describe

    One thing I noted on my own boat about handling, the fine deep enrty forward caused the boat to "wander" at slow speeds even with a full keel. This is called "bow steering" and the outdrive you plan on, because it will be heavier than an outboard and all the way aft, may actually improve handling at slow speed by bringing the bow up a little. It was never really a problem and when I got used to it I never gave it a second thought, until I gave the wheel to someone else and watched them steer "evasive torpedo."

    The timeline for building the boat sounds very optimistic, as does the number of gallons of resin. The Web Forum mentioned on the Bateau site might be a very worthwhile place to spend some time to get soem feedback on items like time to build and materials estimates.

    Good luck, Steve
     
  3. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Jacques Mertens has done a good job of combining the looks of a downeaster with a the modern underbelly of a constant deadrise hull. It will require more power to get her up on plane then the traditional warped bottom, downeast hull form, but it will also be capable of higher speed and more comfort at this speed and in rougher conditions then the warped bottom. In this same vain, she'll fall off plane sooner then a warped bottom so low speed handling may be "squishy", but you'll be able to find a speed she "likes" with some experience in various sea states in your area. She appears to have sufficient freeboard to tolerate some fairly rough conditions, so I'd say go for it and good luck.
     
  4. Rick Tyler
    Joined: Aug 2011
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    Location: Redmond, WA

    Rick Tyler Defenstrator in chief

    I also suggest you spend some time on the bateau2.com forum. Several DE25s and the 23 footer that is very similar have been built, and you will find some good real-world feedback from builder/owners. I'm going to get a ride on a DE25 in a few weeks and if I remember I'll report back here, although I'm guessing a 2- or 3-hour ride on a nice summer day won't tell you much.

    Good luck!
     
  5. MartinV
    Joined: Jul 2011
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    Location: Netherlands

    MartinV Junior Member

    Thanks guys for your input.

    I do not intend to dry out, I do not drive my car into quick sand either and wait for it dry up again before I can move on ;). But good thinking! Perhaps I did want to do it and had not thought about it.

    Does a stern drive weigh more than an outboard because it is a diesel engine? When I do a quick comparison for 150 hp, I get the following figures: Volvo Penta D3-150 300 kg / 660 lb (without the stuff hanging outside the transom) and Yamaha F150 218 kg / 470 lb. The difference is significant, but an outboard CG would be further aft, or would it not?

    @PAR; what kind of wave height would you consider fairly rough? (estimate of course)

    I was also just thinking; I guess this is a relatively light boat (right?), could just wind by itself become an issue for handling?

    I have made an account on the Bateau forum and I will definitely try to get information from it.
     
  6. keysdisease
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    keysdisease Senior Member

    Diesel engines typically weigh more than gas engines of comparable size, but that is not the entire story. Sterndrive engines are almost all derived from automotive engines, which until recently were not terribly worried about weight. Outboard manufacturers on the other hand, are very weight conscience.

    Wind and current will always play a part in handling, but the keel on this boat will make the handling predictable. It will slow down the response to wind and increase the response to current. Don't worry about that, you will learn the handling quirks pretty quickly.

    :) Steve
     
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Modern diesels are much better oriented in regard to weight/HP ratios then previously. Having recently purchased a 185 diesel for an inboard/straight shaft setup, that was once a gas V8, I actually saved 10 pounds over the small block Chevy, that also produced 185 HP.

    It seems in smaller sizes, the weight to HP ratio is still considerably higher, as I also just purchased a 14 HP diesel ($2,500) for a 26' sailboat and it was considerably heavier then a gas counterpart.
     
  8. keysdisease
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    keysdisease Senior Member

    :)There are 3 kinds of boaters:

    Those that have run aground

    Those that lie about never running aground

    Boaters that never leave the dock

    :pSteve


     
  9. MartinV
    Joined: Jul 2011
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    MartinV Junior Member

    Still, you can have the intention not to... :) Which will even makre one a better boarded
     

  10. Bruce46
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: Stuart, Fla.

    Bruce46 Junior Member

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