open 20 footer

An Ilett foiler moth footstep is more like 8 feet

Wardi type with canard and rudder foil is ~ 12 feet

 

Characteristics? Regarding the rig, I'd say the best would be the Bermudan-style Ketch rig. Then, about the keel, I'd like a fin keel with a bulb on it. That's just my 2 cents.....

 

length(size?) matters (again and again)

2, re:" Nobody Cares": Seems to me that length MUST matter or why is Chris so upset?
I don't know the origin of the sailing length convention that ignores the actual overall length but mentions only hull length. I imagine it came about because for years the sailing length of the boat was the hull length. NOT in the case of the Moth foiler where sailing length is from the bow to the trailing edge of the rudder hydrofoil when the boat is on foils.
And as I've said several times my reason for pointing out the substantial difference in ACTUAL, REAL Moth LOA and 11' is to provide the basis of an accurate comparison between the
Moth foiler and other similar foilers. It's interesting to note that when Ian Ward recently proposed new open classes for foilers his smallest class(the one into which the Moth fits) was 4 meters not 3.35 meters(11').Contrary to others in this thread I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right; I'm just hoping to get across that the Moth foiler is DIFFERENT and ,in my opinion, the "conventions" of the past regarding sailing length don't realistically apply to the Moth foiler. Not one single recognized International Class other than the Moth uses a rudder foil to lift the transom clear of the water and ,to me, that is a big deal and an important distinction that unquestionably alters the definition of the effective sailing length of the boat.
It's also interesting to note that under ISAF ignoring the rudder or rudder gantries is NOT universal: in the ISAF recognized RC development classes a transom hung rudder is ALWAYS included in the LOA measurement!

 

the reason he's "upset" by your definition-i think maybe he is just a bit annoyed- is that everyone accepts the Moth as being 11 feet, even if it is 12.75 feet. Is there any particular reason that you are promoting the length of 12.75 feet? I dont see anything wrong with the moth being called 11 feet-because thats what its hull length is. There are classes of boats that are named after their waterline length. People dont call for them to specify their actual LOA, even though it is quite a bit longer than the LWL. Back when boats typically had bowsprits on which the headstay was mounted, then that was included in the LOA. Boats were not rated by the length of the bowsprit though, they were rated by the LOD, sail area, and other factors that made up the CCA rule, and earlier rules. Did you happen to know that one of the greatest ocean racers ever- Ticonderoga- would have been illegal if they counted bowsprits in the rating rule? CCA upper limit was about 75 feet. Ticonderoga was 86 feet with the bowsprit. 72 feet on deck though. Obviously the Moth is different as you say, but the effective sailing length probably doesnt matter because the boat is flying. The distance between the 2 foils matters. If the boat isnt flying, then it will be longer on the water, but its been proven that if the boat cant fly, its slower than conventional moths. Im still waiting for answers to my earlier questions.......

 

answers

2, you answered your own questions in the last sentence of post 39 and I acknowledged that in post 40. There's nothing more I can add...
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Andy, you're right and the only way I see to acknowlege that "footstep" is to point out that it takes place within the 12.75' LOA according to John. The new M4 appears to have a system similar to what Wardi described but I can't be sure since I haven't seen it-are they similar?

 

you achknowledged one of my questions. I still would like your opinion on an ocean racing foiler falling off a 20+ foot wave at over 20 knots. And what happens if the boat is somehow unable to foil.
Thanks-
-usa2

 

what if

It seems to me that the crew of a ocean racing foiler would be nuts to jump off a 20'+ wave at 20 knots. I would expect that in conditions where foiling is practical they would foil ; in conditions where it would not be practical-or safe they would do what any other smart ocean racer does in those conditions. I think when foils are actually used on ocean racers that at least the main foil would be retractable for lite air and other non-foiling conditions.
That being said I'm working on a couple of small foiler projects where the boats are designed to intentionally jump and the foils are engineered for that.

 

I wasnt saying that they would do it on purpose. You are right about people being nuts to do that. I was thinking more about an accidental falling off a wave, especially a wave with no back. If the thing is faster than a regular monohull as you claim it would be, wouldnt it hit the water at a greater speed? Also, if the boat is designed to be flying, will the hull be suitable for smashing through waves? Usually, the bigger the boat the bigger the problems get. The retractable foil makes sense, but does it retract completely into the hull so it isnt exposed? Also, you say only the main foil is retractable. That would maybe save that one, but the other one gets killed in rough seas and probably breaks off. Until one of these is built and sailed succesfully and safely, i'll question the concept. There seems to be too many problems that can't be dealt with-such as sea conditions. If an ocean racer cant cope with large waves, it isnt an ocean racer.

 

ocean foilers/ what if

Nothing wrong with questioning a concept and obviously, all the questions can't be answered now in indelible ink but I believe that in the end most will be answered in a positive way. It takes people with the vision and guts to go against the grain to invest in new ideas like this and the proof is in the future for now.
The mainfoil ,in my version of this concept(so far), would retract flush with the bottom. It may be possible to work out a solution to retract the rudder foil though at this point I see it as an asset in rough conditions and a liability only in the lightest wind.
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Now, 2 answer my question for a change: you posted asking what people would think would be the fastest 20' boat around a race course-why wouldn't you consider a foiler that is highly likely to be somewhat faster than any other boat in that size range? And not only faster but probably less costly as well than ,say, a souped up 18. Of course the speed of a larger two person monofoiler is unproven as yet but what if you KNEW it would be faster-would you still exclude it?

 

If i KNEW for sure that it would be faster, while carrying a multi person crew(probably 3 or 4 persons) than i would consider it, and maybe go ahead with it IF it was faster in the average conditions of where i sail than an Aussie 18 type boat. Also, where i sail, there isnt much room in the bay where i am based, so the boat would have to be capable of going out into exposed ocean. The bay i sail out of is calm for most of the day, and then in the afternoon the wind picks up to 20-25 knots. I was on a 58 foot 35 ton yawl sailing into the bay last year, and the conditions were extremely difficult even for that boat. We were getting about 10 foot seas that were sometimes breaking at the crest. Would a say 20 foot foiler be able to handle that? When you answer this, also know that it is extremely narrow in the entrance of the bay, with ledges on either side of the entrance, which is about 3 miles long. Once outside the bay, you are exposed to large swells which are typical between 5-10 feet. If sailing into or out of the bay, there is absolutely NO room for error.

 

murder

My question is: would you do that in ANY 20 footer in those conditions that you say were tough for a 58' leadbelly-with two or three good friends aboard?? In an Aussie 18?!!

 

yes, depending on their skill. Ive taken a 12 foot catboat out in those conditions. And also, in any boat, when you are sailing out, especially if you leave in the mornig, the sea will be nice and relatively flat, but once your out there, you obviously have to come back the same way you went out. A light displacement overpowered boat can handle the conditions if well sailed. It may be difficult, but they can still handle them.
Some of the more extreme Aussie 18s structurally may not be up to sailing in those conditions, but I wouldnt get a boat that isnt up to sailing in my local conditions.

 

maine

Where in Maine are you?

 

now Im in brunswick. when i sail its out of quahog bay.

 

Maine

My Dad fell in love with that coast in the early 50's cruising his Hand designed motorsailer between Conn. and Yarmouth Nova Scotia frequently stopping in Boothbay. He went to Boothbay for vacation every summer from 1960 to 2001---