Not another one!!

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by Welder4956, Dec 28, 2008.

  1. Welder4956
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: Tauranga

    Welder4956 Junior Member

    Well i don't normally do these introduction forum messages but here goes i have also posted this on another forum.

    I am in the 30ish year old bracket and i have come to be connected with this site through researching my biggest project (next to starting a family).

    I am going to build a boat. It will be in the size region of 65'. I intend to retire on it and see bits of the world that i have so far missed and will miss by building a boat. I am competent crewman trained which i did with the army some time ago. It is not so much the sailing i want but the sailing of my creation that I'm after.

    My background to this project is that i have my own small engineering firm and have been a coded welder for the past 18-20 years. I have built a great number of things from F1 cars in the UK to oil rigs in Dubai. I am now well settled in New Zealand where i am bringing up my family and building a boat:D .

    I am under no illusions and am aware that for every success story there is hundreds of failures. The things i need to get sorted and that i am spending the most time on are PLANS. I have done as much research as i can through the net on trying to buy ready made plans (just add money) to chartering my own designer and getting custom build drawings, and as such i still don't really know which way to turn. There is a massive price difference between some of the off the shelf plans that I'm just not sure where value for money and ripped off separate. As i have said the hull build is not my fear factor. I will be building from either alloy or steel, still to decide. Have heard fores and against for both. The interior is where things get shaky but i have a couple of good friends nearby who make wood sing so i will abuse them fully.

    Well i think thats enough of an introduction for now. If anyone thinks there are some good threads to read or links to look at feel free to drop me a line. Please not all doom and gloom.

    Wishing everyone a Happy new Year

    Matt
     
  2. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    Location: OREGON

    rasorinc Senior Member

  3. Welder4956
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 16
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    Location: Tauranga

    Welder4956 Junior Member

    Thats the sort of thing i have been looking at. Nice design. I have also looked at the Roberts New York 65 and a Dix 64.

    This is where i became confused as to where price stops being affordable and becomes excessive. Both the Roberts and the Loadstar are comparatively priced. Then you take the Dix design and suddenly the scale has jumped 20 fold. i.e. Roberts $1000AUS compared to Dix $6000US.

    Where is the difference for a set of off the shelf drawings?

    If there is a marked difference does it command that sort of factor?

    Thanks

    Matt
     
  4. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    Location: OREGON

    rasorinc Senior Member

    Ever troll for suckers???? I sent you a P.M.
     
  5. Welder4956
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 16
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    Location: Tauranga

    Welder4956 Junior Member

    Excellent only 2 more posts to qualify for PM. I need to have been a member for 1 day and have posted 5 messages to access PM. I hope this counts as 1 of them. Cheers rasorinc I'm sure the wait will be worth it.
     
  6. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 1,854
    Likes: 71, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 896
    Location: OREGON

    rasorinc Senior Member

    if you do not get it send me an e-mail or P.M. stan
     
  7. Jarrod
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 43
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    Location: New Zealand

    Jarrod Marine Designer

    Dear Matt,

    We're a locally based marine design firm, Mount Maunganui that is.

    I'm more than happy to meet with you to discuss your desired vessel if that will help. Whether or not we provide a design or just provide further advise, we're all for helping out the local boaties.

    I look forward to hearing from you.
     
  8. Welder4956
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: Tauranga

    Welder4956 Junior Member

    Jarrod

    Well it is as good a path to take as any. I would like to outsource locally if i need to at all. I intend to use NZ profiles for all the plate cutting. As a local business i like to use local business. I only need to put 1 more post and then i can PM you. Stay tuned.

    Matt
     
  9. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    Welder....

    Why 65'....why not 55'....or 45'. The smaller boat will go together quickly and be far easier to handle in the out-of-the-way spots you hope to visit. The money saved will buy many nice hotel rooms.

    If you think you will save money by building a boat forget it. Today's market is full of fantastic deals on used boats. There are 10's of thousands to choose from and sellers are desperate.

    If you must build NC cut parts are the way to go, be aware that prices (for nested parts data) for this vary wildly. Also realize that the welded (and painted if steel) shell represents 20-25% of cost and man hours of the complete boat.

    Amateur built boats, from designs intended for amateur builders, such as Bruce Roberts and Glen-L, are generally viewed by the marketplace as questionable. This is because the builder is unknown, again an existing boat from a reputable builder is a far better investment. I'm not saying there will be no problems, every boat has problems no matter who the builder is.

    I know Bruce Roberts plans are full of mistakes/oversights, I don't know this about Glen-L but I imagine it may be a similar case. I believe the Dix designs have fewer problems because they have received more attention by the designer. It makes no sense for a first-time builder/beginning sailor to commission a new design, don't do it.
     
  10. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    hey welder I have built many of both, if you like to pm with email address will be glad to talk,
     
  11. Welder4956
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: Tauranga

    Welder4956 Junior Member

    Thanks Tad now we are getting some conjecture. I will try to answer your points in order.

    Have gone for a larger boat due mainly to cabin facilities. I have 5 children and would like to share my experience with them if possible. They will be older and more in there own life by the time i have finished this project but i want to be able to offer the facility if they want to. Perhaps a sentimental way of looking at it but it is a consideration i want to take into account.

    I think i have already made my point on this but i will make it again. I am not doing this to save money nor make money. I want to sail MY creation. This is my epiphany my last glorious project before i sail into the sunset. I have wanted to build a boat since i first learned to weld. Now i am older and better grounded i.e. kids growing no mortgage and a steady little business. I intend to throw some chaos into things. Like i said i am in my 30s now so have some time to complete the task. I have been bending and shaping metal for other peoples designs since i was 15. Now this is for ME.

    One of my suppliers is a company called NZ Profiles and they are the largest NC profiling company in NZ. If the plans don't come with NC nesting drawings i am fully capable of using either Auto CAD or Solidworks to make pattern part drawings to be placed in a nesting. Again I appreciate the hull is the easy part of the project and there is more to it than that. I have been following the 5 year project of 2 ladies and a Roberts design on the net with some interest. Project management is my grounding so time evaluation and costing has been shaping for the past 18 months. Very valid point though.

    This is something i have noticed from reading many posts. But there are a lot of these boats still in service today. The designs all seem to be very dated though. From the web research i have done i am finding the availability of plans to be very limited. A lot of people have an opinion on why i shouldn't get a Roberts or the likes but very few has offered any good reasoned alternatives. I have several boat builders on my door step here and i would look at going in and offering my welding skills in exchange for some boat building teaching. But being as i don't even have a plan to look at yet that bridge is still in the distance. Believe me they are screaming for welders over here boat building or otherwise.

    So Roberts and Glen-L are "probably" full of mistakes Dix has "probably" got mistakes as well but less of them, and it would make no sense to commission a new design. So that being the case noting will get built. If you would like to suggest a solution to the problem you have highlighted but not on the open forum then please PM me.

    I do appreciate your points and i am not trying to be argumentative. What i am trying to do is brainstorm through my issues with guys who have done this sort of thing before to arrive at the best solution.

    I am an engineer and as such i see things as nuts and bolts and inches and millimeters. I also see that for every problem there is a solution it may just be a little awkward to get to. Right I'm sure that has opened up for more discussion and I hope productive. I have seen these threads get hijacked in the past.

    Thanks Tad this all helps.
     
  12. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    Welder...

    Designs are like most things, generally you get what you pay for. I have been employed on several occasions to fix problems with Bruce Roberts plans. As with many things involving boats, it may be a matter of opinion as to whether something is a problem or not. But little things like no water tanks in the design or any place to put them...in a 55' trawler yacht. Or a propeller aperture that's too small for the indicated power. Or framing that's so light the deck oilcans when you walk on it.

    Bruce Roberts and GlenL are producing plans (mostly) on spec, they do not have a client paying for the initial design. Consequently they put as few hours as possible into it. Understand that a complete 65' sailing yacht engineered to a modern standard would require approximately 1400 man hours. At only $50/hr that's 70k....considerably more than your stock plan price.

    Recommended designers of metal sailing yachts in the 65' range...
    Dudley Dix
    John Simpson http://www.simpsonmarinedesign.com/
    Ted Brewer
    David De Villiers http://www.devilliersyachtdesign.co.nz/
    Van De Stadt http://www.stadtdesign.com/
    Graham Radford http://www.radford-yacht.com/
     
  13. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Vancouver

    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Matt,
    I bought the Lodestar55 patterns & plans 2 years ago. Ken Hankinson was the designer; he sold his plans to Glen-L a few years ago. Because the full-sized patterns are included, lofting is removed from the construction process, though one may still loft from the offsets, if one wishes. There are a few changes/additions which I would/will make to the plans, however, I did lay the lines in my shop(auto) & have found nothing missing or seemingly incorrect. I will be building in Asia, the layout was to consider any flaws/modifications while still in North America. An example of "missing" components, would be a bow thruster - invaluable in a vessel of this size. If you can get your hands on designs of the late New Zealand designer, Denis Ganley, for a reasonable price, you may consider those, as well. If, in fact, you are able to, let me know how to do so, he created some very appealling designs. Feel free to contact me with any questions regarding the Lodestar plans.
    Mike
     
  14. Welder4956
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: Tauranga

    Welder4956 Junior Member

    Thanks guys some good food for thought. Those links Tad were excellent. Also did some digging with the Denis Ganley and have found a company in Auckland who have his designs. I have e-mailed them and will let you know if anything happens. Well I am less than 10 hours from the new year now so best be getting my drinking hat ready as it is hot out there today.

    All have a happy and safe new year and we will see each other refreshed and ready for that boat project.

    Thanks to you all.

    Matt
     

  15. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Matt, I have been building steel boats from 1981 as an amateur and turned pro in 1988 and the best advice I can give you is this;
    1. Get a reputable designer that is freely available, either by phone, email when you need to clear something with him /her.
    2. Make sure the plans are BUILDER friendly - don't get whitewashed with the promise of full sized patterns and all that crap - I never used then anyhow.
    3. Lastly, if possible, use a designer that has built and owned one of his own designs at least.

    I have been unfortunate to have built two Roberts boats; a 40ft CC Spray and a 38ft Offshore and the plans lacked a lot of detail and left the builder to his own devices at times - perhaps that is the reason why so many of his owner built boats have been problematic with some structural failures, rudder assemblies comes to mind. Yip, the plans looks impressive with this massive tube full of cheap paper templates:(

    About Dix; I have been fortunate built a few of his designs; the Dix 38 (which I incidentally commissioned in 1991) , the Dix 57 and the Dix 65 and am currently busy with a Dix 43 CC. All these boats can be seen on my webpage.

    This probably gives me some authority to speak out about Dix's plans and all I can say is that they are first of all, very complete and builder friendly - Dix built a few of his own designs and one boat that comes to mind was "Black Cat" which he successfully raced in South Africa and the Cape to Rio races - so he knows what it is all about.
    Furthermore, he is always available with advice and backup.

    Yes, I hear the question coming, what is "Builder's Friendly"?
    In short, easy to build with no impossible bends or curves. Accessibility to all places and ease of welding at awkward places and best of all, complete plans with lots of detail and when possible options available. For instance, The Dix 43 we had an option of building the hull either in 4mm or 5mm plate with notes on how to change the construction for the thinner plate.
    As a side note; I had built a Mason steel design once and that was my greatest nightmare and I made a promise never to touch one of his designs again.

    Matt, as for the price discrepancy in plans, remember you get what you pay for and price usually in most cases reflex quality...

    I confess. The best ever plans I had worked with in the past was Van De Stadt's of Holland. Built a couple of 34's and a 40ft and these plans are excellent in every detail and nothing left to change:cool:
     
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