Noahs' Ark- Better than New?

the archeological findings revealed almost the opposite of the exodus story. The Egyptians although almost certain to have enslaved some number of the Hycsos ( early Jews ) built a series of fortifications along the Nile delta area to keep the surrounding more primitive peoples out, rather than in. Particularly during times of drought or in years of low crop yield. During a particularly dry spell it seems that the Egyptian land holders withdrew from the Canaan Valley area never to return, and eventually the Hycsos migrated down from the surrounding hills and into the long abandoned dwellings. It is most likely the Egyptians abandoned the valley area, rather than it was lost to any military action and its most likely that the Hycsos were always there, which is supported with artifact finds, rather than there have been some exodus who's consequences are somehow invisible to modern research.

There is also a telling silence in the Egyptian record of the time. Or in the records of the other valley tribes, that there was ever a mas exodus from Egypt or a military conquest of the canaan.

Its one of the more thoroughly researched of the bible stories.

two must reads if you actually interested in religious history is "paul the myth maker" and "the bible unearthed"

Cheers
B

 

There, Boston, the link to the whole series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t440bxhn1qA&feature=related

An eye-opener. Jerusalem was NOT a "resplendent" and "fabulous" city. It was a small crappy village.

And "mesiah" is not a person's name. Primitive jews borrowed Persian words to cry out "our king", me shah in Persian, will come one day and free us from invaders!!!

Meaning, ok we are crappy and primitive today, so whatever powerful empire comes, they run us over, but one day we too will have a king (shah, like Reza Pahlavi, Iranian shah) and he will lead us to freedom.

The cry had NOTHING to do with the biblical interpretation, It was incorporated through the centuries because it was repeated so many times that it became a "truth" unto itself.

Shah - king, is the name of the game too. In english it is called a chess. We can see how different people, speaking different languages, can distort the original word/s and somewhat change the original meaning too.

Me shah (our king) became a guy messiah...

What a load of delusions is a religion.

What does it tell you the fact that those arabs had to invent 5-6 religions before they finally turned into religious fanatics they are today!!?? First they had politeistic religions for about a thousand of years, then under the influence of powerful empires aroudn they started leaning towards one, then they invented judaism, then christianity and then muslim religion...

ANd it all has the roots in Egyptian religion.

Where do you think the "amen" they all (jews, christians and muslims) say, came from?

From Amen/Amon, Egyptian god. Just as in these three little pesky "religions", Egyptians used to say: who is the one and the great? Amen is the one.

This is a historical fact. I is well known how did Egyptians pray and what they used to say in their prayers.

So the next time christians, muslims and jews around in this forum say "amen", remember that you are merely confirming that the only one and the greatest is the god Amen/Amon.

There's a reason why most of the faraons (pheros?) had their names end with amen or amon.

 

Nothing wrong with the legends per se. It's just that when you read the epic of Gilgamesh (Gilga the king in Persian), you recognize Noah and his ark. almost 2000 years OLDER epic.

And the Red Sea story is just a recount of an arab legend about Jusuf and his followers falling out of grace with the kalif in Saana (Yemen) and having to run away up north, through the DESRET called RED SEA.

The wind ("god") raised the RED SEA and burried the puruers, saving Yusuf and his ilk who then spent decades wondering around the Saudi Arabian peninsula before, what a funny coincidence, settling in what we know as Israel and Palestine today.

If you have muslim friends ask them to find you the story, or tell it to you.

Very informative. Oh, it is also older than the bible story. I heard it in Jiddah, while on board of a merchant ship. We stopped there to load the ship before heading to Europe, and got stuck seven days due to some deckhands not having their vaccination carnets in order.

To come to think of it, I heard a lot of old stories and legends there... Apparently the 1001 night is not as raunchy as "western" propaganda would want us to think. Quite to the contrary. But that subject would need another thread.

 

There is a lot of stuff like that hidden within the pauline christian interpretation of things Diego. One that you might find interesting is that a virgin birth in Judaic culture of the time was one that occurred within the traditional one year waiting period between engagement and marriage. It was a nice way of saying there was a bun in the oven a little early.

Its a mosh of misrepresentation in a time period where within a life span the generally illiterate masses would believe just about anything, as long as they had no direct experience with the storys origins. One reason Paul ended writing so many letters. Jesus contemporaries wouldn't put up with his BS and just about rioted when he spewed the rubbish he did. Thesolonia for example.

Whole thing is really really interesting and I spent a lot of elective credit hours on it.

Anyway good to hear from you
Cheers
B

 

Sure Bos- make sure you are not being debunked by the debunkers.
You know how to check your sources but just off hand those books sound like lay titles.

I never had much interest in religious history but who knows, I could turn over a new leaf!

 

not even remotely

all three authors held PHD's and all three were active at various universities, Silberman and Finklestein are huge in the field of archeology and Macoby work is about as well respected as any in his field, Which actually isn't saying much because religious studies are all subject to at least some level of interpretation. But none the less his work was very often cited and his books best sellers. Kinda the Stephan Hawkings of his day in the field.

I think if you research those authors you'll find a pretty impressive list of credentials

The Bible Unearthed is the more recent work so If I had to pick one to recommend I'd say thats the one. But both are spectacular in there own right.

B

 

Not only did the Exodus really happen at a specific point in time, the Egyptians themselves actually wrote about it at the time.

http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm

"This stele puts a terminus ante quem date of 1210 BC for the exodus (McCarter 1992, 132)."

 

There has been massive sea floods as Boston wrote, also ships carrying animals have also been found in various places in the Mediteranian.

The floods are self explanitary however the ships with animals have been proven to be the be wrecks of transport ships moving animals of all kinds the the Coleseum for the Roman games.

Beneath the floor was caged Lions , Tiger , etc all for slaughter and NOT as thought the Gladiators who rarely fought to the death, they were too expensive.

But the ark is a great story and thats all the whole Bible is.

 

I have scant time Bos but maybe we could toss it around a bit.

I'll take the 'validity of biblical references for the exodus' side...

 

always helps to "not" be preaching to the choir Bntii.

I'm feeling pretty confident that although many secular scholars have tried to suggest some evidence does exist for the exodus that as of yet none has been found. Which stands in stark contrast to the number of records from that time period that fail to mention it. The Egyptians were prodigious writers and if a pharaoh so much as farted, it got chiseled in something. Ten times over. Now thats not to say the records of the time don't note a dry spell, or that from time to time Egypt had to deal with invading tribes. But there's no evidence it was anything but normal weather fluctuations, resulting in a cleaning house type scenario.

this link delves into what some try and claim is evidence but as can be seen, two slaves escaping into a desert and chased by military personnel is hardly an exodus
from the Denver Seminary
http://www.denverseminary.edu/article/exodus-the-egyptian-evidence/

and another
http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=1041&journal=1&type=pdf

even hardcore christian pundits struggle to find any Egyptian record

Bimson, John J. Introduction to Redating the Exodus and Conquest, pp. 10-28.

And while there is ample evidence of drought in the area there is none of any series of plagues or a forced release of any large groups of people Judaic or not.

from
http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm

Being familiar with the reference Hoyt cited its pretty clear that they are not referring to an exodus as described in the bible story but an early attack outside Egypt borders on one of the neighboring tribes, the Hyksos who later became known as the Jews. A fact that might have been mentioned early on in the article but wasn't until much later giving the incorrect impression that the loosely nit tribes who together were known as the Hyksos and who later became the Judaic tribes were at the time even remotely practicing Jews. On the contrary, the article mentions the Egyptians were upset that they had focused on Baal worship. Even if you accept that there was a mas expulsion from Egypt of foreigners or slaves, who were putting a strain on the Egyptians ability to feed there own you still don't get anything even close to an exodus of Judaic mythology or a series of biblical plagues. Sure the Egyptians mentioned the tribes around then and also built fortifications to keep them out as well as war with them. But at no time was the entire people called the hyksos enslaved and at no time is a series of plagues mentioned that led to the release of large numbers of slaves, or any number for that mater. Sure there were likely Hyksos slaves in Egypt but there is absolutely no mention of any series of events synonymous with those described in the bible leading to the freeing of slaves. Interaction with the neighboring tribes, of course, exodus ?, no way.

From Hoyts cited article

It becomes pretty clear that once again the dogma doesn't match up. A bloody Nile is simply a common term for the Nile in flood and not a reference to actual blood or any reference to a plague. The Nile flood on the contrary was a welcomed event. While some suggest a military defeat is being claimed as a victory by the early Jewish chroniclers there is even greater weight of evidence to suggest there was no victory or defeat and the towns were just abandoned. In either case the biblical exodus story finds absolutely no support within either the archeological finds or the Egyptian records

oh well, history is unfortunately open to interpretation, but often the context of the times is forgotten.

Cheers
B

 

Or not understood...

-Tom

 

In the mid 90s, Bill Moyer did a 5 part series on the religions of the world and Houstin Smith was involved in all and 1 hour or more was an interview Moyers had with Smith. This was shown on public television. That man impressed me to no end. He showed the intertwining of the "enduring religions" and discussed in a way that would offend no one. He was a genus and I just loved the series and if anyone has a link to that please post it. No one in my lifetime ever made religion so interesting and understandable and he never offended anyone.

 

a little bit of tact goes a long way
I'm still working on that one ;-)

 

If a god wanted to clear the earth surley all he needed to do was say it --like he made the sun. Why would he save one man and his family with such extravagance as an Ark.

And then what --made it rain for 40 days and this is supposed to be the whole world, and then Oh ha ha it dries up in a few weeks and a Dove that can not stay on the wing for 40 days or was it an albatross came with a stick.

Oh come on guys.

I wish I lived in America I could sell you guys anything.

 

Hey... we didn't write those stories.