Ninigret Flare

PARS suggestion On the Bartender is interesting. My first choice was a Bartender 19. I wasn't sure I could get 10-12 knts out of it. How well would a design like this handle at displacement and semi displacement speeds? I would absolutely love to build a Bartender.

 

A 19' Bartender will do 20 knots on a 25 HP outboard, probably over 30 with a 40 HP. The 19' Bartender is about 1,400 pounds, with fuel, outboard and a skipper. Since it's a plank on frame, she's heavier then she needs to be, though this isn't a bad thing in rough service.

The Bartender does very well at displacement and semi displacement speeds, not squishy at all. The USCG was very satisfied with theirs. Why don't you like the Bartender Eric? Ever been for a ride on one? The 19' boat can be stretched (has been previously) to 21'.

 

Twenty knots on 25hp? Yea w 2 gallons in a 6 gallon can and a small woman at the helm. All I've seen are light plywood. Are there really planked BTs? As full at the ends wide and deep and w very little deadrise I surely would'nt want to be aboard one in a head sea. Being short and relatively flat what's to give them directional stability? Not much. And the pointy *** end should'nt behave any differently that one that's perfectly flat. Actually in following seas there may be a slight advantage but the real advantage is in marketing ....they are very good looking, cute and distinctive looking boats but if I had my choice I'd rather be on a 26' plywood Owens than a 26 Bartender in the snotty. If the Bartender was quite a bit deeper (more DR), narrower, heavier and w less windage I'd have a different opinion and then the Bartender would'nt be the Bartender. The name is cute, the boat is very good looking and distinctive but that's it. You say they're efficient and they are ....relative to a fiberglass boat of the same size but they are no more efficient that most all other light wood boats that size. You tell me PAR ...what elements of the Bartenders design makes it seaworthy ...that is MORE seaworthy than other comparable designs. I'll give it the very slight following sea advantage (at disp speed only though). And if Axeman did build the Bartender I'll predict that when he gets all the fuel, water, food and other gear aboard to go where he wants to go his 20hp engine will probably deliver about 7 or 8 knots. It takes a long slender boat to go over hull speed on very low power. The Bartender is not.

 

20knts is a bit optimistic, but the Bartender is a great design.

One advantage the original poster has is that he doesn't have " the need for speed" . When you are open minded powerwise, there are very very many elegant designs to choose from.. The Handbilly design is a nice one

http://www.dhylanboats.com/handy_billy.html

 

Wow, no wonder I have a hard time making up my mind, you guys know a lot more than I do about this.... There lot of things to consider. The Bartender 19 has a bit narrower beam at the waterline Than the Ninigret. They are both 6'8" overall beam but Bartender has more flare. (Which is where this discussion started) Between 2"-4") Stretched to 21 the bartender I would think would be in the same ballpark , but the entry doesn't look as fine.

 

Of the opinions about Bartender, how many have been on one, how many know how much they weigh (full up dry hull weight is about 900 pounds, so she's not light). Any nea sayers know the entry half angle?

It's a classic warped bottom with a twist, it's double ended and uses chine strakes (rather large ones) to assist holding it's butt up, which is pretty much a prerequisite for a double ender. Because it's a warped bottom and nearly flat bottomed in the last 15% of wetted area, she requires less power to to "climb up". Also because she's not very deep, the hole she makes isn't very deep, meaning less resistance. They are very maneuverable and her flare and freeboard help considerably in a rough go of it. Again, the USCG evaluated them and loved it for a surf rescue boat.

I've always wanted to build one, though I would convert it to glued lap and put the weight savings into a thick, probably double planked bottom. Stretched to 21' she'd have more stability, leaner lines for better efficiency and a sweeter look too.

Admittedly she'd like a 30 or 40 HP outboard better, but she'll do fine with a smaller one, especially if stretched. The site doesn't offer much technical detail and the plans are higher priced then necessary, considering how many have been sold. On the other hand, the plans are well detailed and a strong support group is available.

Lastly directional stability (tracking) was one of the design aspects the USCG tested in it's evaluation and she did better then the observer thought she would, remaining on course in spite of breaking seas on her foredeck.

I don't know why you think this boat is light Eric. She's got closely spaced frames and substantial planking thickness.

 

YES.
The Handy Billy is what got me look'in at Atkins Tang. Very similar boats. Someone on BD said the Handy Billy was'nt a good design about 6 mos or so ago. I really like it. Can't see what could be wrong w it except that it lacks barge like stability, and most good boats do.They are all rather deep w plenty of deadrise but what makes them different and special form other typical boats is the rocker they all share from amidships aft. They don't go 25 knots and obviously aren't designed for that but do they ever "slip by" at 12 to 14. Look at the wake on the fwd end of that first Handy Billy. That tells the story. Axe, when Slipby gets to speed I think you'll like her sheer line. You said "The Bartender 19 has a bit narrower beam at the waterline Than the Ninigret." I'd a never thunk. Obviously my concept of the Bartender is not quite clear as I thought it was much more beamy than Ninigret. ??? And as for flare I'd trade deadrise for flare any day. PAR, I just saw your last post and it looks like I probably don't know what I'm talking about re Bartender. But from a styling point she's a double ender but hydrodynamicly it's basically just another planing hull. But it's been a long time since I've seen one and my memory is'nt great so ???? In surf the Bartender has an advantage over the others for the Coast Guard in that it's bow is very full giving it great lift to punch though surf ...but Axe ain't go'in there. And like you say it needs 40hp. Actually at this point, if it was my place to do so I'd recommend a scaled DOWN Tang. I think Tang would deliver a banner Cadillac ride, have the best directional stability and lowest power requirement(probably) 2nd only to Slipby and carry the load he will have gracefully. Axe has talked about scaling as if it's no big deal but I'm sure on some boats it could be. I remember how cleverly you (PAR) laid out the plywood panels for Digger. And if one is scaling 15% and the next size of plywood is 30% .....???? And PAR I appreciate your not getting testy w me about the negative banner I was carrying against the Bartender. As you can see I'm rather outspoken.

 

I am familiar with the scaling process, having built a 10% scaled up George Buehler Juna 37' at 41'. A 10% scale is generally far more difficult than a 10% stretch. increasing the station spacing usually allows easier planking as the form is more relaxed. One could see some weight savings by going to glued lap, or even a ply glass composite. Tang is definitely better looking Slipby I can see why you like her. The Bartender plans are way over priced @$250 I agree there.

 

I generally don't recommend scaling, but modest stretching is common and often produces a better boat.

The Handy Billy is a nice little harbor launch type of thing, but it doesn't have the freeboard I'd like to see in a boat I'd call "sea worthy".

Scaling a boat causes all sorts of untold issues, one of which Eric eludes to with my panel layouts for Digger. The length of Digger is dictated by plywood panels sizes. Even just a few more inches in length and now you're scarfing in bits and pieces, to make up the difference, which is a pain in the butt. A guy named Axeman probably doesn't have the lumber troubles the rest of us do, unless it's just a reference to his ex-wife, which would be a little weird.

I think you have several choices Axeman. Don't pick to quickly as you can build a boat you'll hate to drive, just as easy as one you'll love. I'm a big fan of Atkins style and common sense approaches to issues, but not especially fond of the poor hull shapes and heavy (ridiculously so in most cases) build methods. I own one of John Atkins last designs and a personal favorite of his (he'd been aboard many times) and I do appreciate the way it was designed and built. As a 40' cruiser, I can live with the thick planking and massive framing, but in a low power, semi plane speed, 20'ish open boat, not so much. In this size there's really only two ways to go, shape or weight. Atkins had no choice, so their designs are narrow and have to rely on design quirks such as hooks to keep them on their feet. (My big, box keel cruiser has a hook!)

Bolger was famous for using design quirks AND weight savings, to get exceptional preformance. You may consider one of his box keel variants.

In any case Axeman, don't let Eric (Easy Rider) and my banter get to you. He an I are probably equally as hardheaded, though our better halves probably have much more descriptive adjectives to use explaining us.

I still think Bartender would make a nice glued lapstrake.

 

Thanks PAR, No my ex wife is still alive The Axeman comes from my other passion, I'm a guitarist. Electric guitar is often referred to as an axe, Probably since Jimi Hendrix used it like one on stage. I Like the Handy Billy, one would have to increase the free board. Speaking of significant others.......I put My designs list in front of her and she immediately nixed the narrower designs(Handy Billy & Slipby or scaled down Tang) Leaves Me with Ninigret and a stretched Bartender. I like both of them & they will probably perform similarly @20hp
Larry

 

Axeman,
I think the power required for each boat is: Bar 40, slip 20, Nin 30, Tang 40 to 60 - or for a scaled down Tang 20 to 40 (depending on size) and HB 30. Don't see an issue w freeboard on the HB. A thought I had is to build a transom boat and get another 20hp OB for twin 20s. Would'nt need quite that much power on Ninigret unless you gave her more deadrise. Ketewomoke, (another Atkin boat) would be good. HE says 16mph but it sure dos'nt look like it would be that fast to me. Should be VERY seaworthy though and run a bit over disp speed. Do you already have the 20hp engine? Whatever you choose let us know and do a follow up on how it worked out.

 

You should consider more power for your proposed project. 20hp is OK for a light loaded small craft. Once you load up with the wife and kids, then work to windward, you will see the effects of underpower...A wet ride. Best is you choose the right power to keep the boat on a plane and as a result...dry...with spray deflect out and aft

 

Michael,
I'm usually yelling at boaters for too much power but in Axeman's case I think he's going too far. But I'm sure the Slipby would work for him w 20hp but all the rest need more. Fuel, fresh water, food (to eat and for emergency), tools, spare engine parts like a propeller and water pump impeller oil ect, lots of clothes like rubber boots and rain gear, navigation equipment ect ect ect. Been there done that. Most speeds presented by designers and marketers are bare boat numbers not relevant to what Axe is intending to do. But almost fifty percent of the time there's any wind your'e bucking head seas and flattish bottoms like Bartender and Ninigret pound hard lots of the time making headway miserable at best. To a great extent Michael I think you're quite right about the power required but when the going gets nasty I think a good skipper slows down, especially w a flattish bottom. And he talked about 12 knots so I don't think he intends to be planing w a 22' boat. One will need a lower pitch prop when maxed out w gear and fuel but after 30% of fuel is consumed a higher pitched prop is best. But I'm just kick'in theory and experience around. This is Axeman's boat and his adventures. I know the waters he's planing to visit and there will be challenges that will result in at least some discomfort and all the boats he's looking at are good boats so if his seamanship is up to the task he'll be fine and enjoy himself immensely.

 

Hi Guys,
So The Ketewomoke is a very nice design, but with 7'10" beam even scaled down 10% it would have more beam than the Ninigret. It would go as fast?
I have a fair idea of what I'm about. I have a fair amount of experience on the water. I've been around Vancouver Island a couple times and sailed these waters since 1982. Also single handed a 28' Roberts Spray I built across the Pacific. Most of my experience has been under sail. I know what going slow is all about....especially if one is in a Roberts design! But some of the best days of my life have been on the water going slow. In fact I don't remember a single time where going fast on a power boat was memorable.
That doesn't necessarily mean I want to dawdle at 6knts all the time though. I think I'll probably build The Bateau "Nina". It's probably The lightest build of a Ninigret I can do. These are the speeds being reported on the "Nina" with a 25hp outboard.
4300 rpm 13 mph
5000 rpm 17 mph
5200 rpm 18 mph
5700 rpm 21 mph
I think this was with 2 aboard, the boat also has a hard top cuddy cabin.
I may be able to achieve 10-12 knots lightly loaded and be on a downward scale as I load heavier. Even at full displacement I would think I could manage a bit better than hull speed. That would be the advantage of a semi displacement hull I would think. If I went with a displacement hull I would always Be stuck at Hull speed (like the Roberts Spray!) light or not. The reason I am so adamant about using the 20hp is because I have one that is brand new and I cannot afford to sell it and buy a bigger one. It is also a size we can handle. Perhaps in the future I will be able to afford a bigger one ,but I am not counting on it, I'm semi retired now, and rather than working more I'd rather spend more time on the water while I still can.
Thanks everyone for the help. Larry

 

Out of curiosity how much, or how rapidly does W/L beam effect speed. Slipby, Ninigret,
Ketewomoke are all rather narrow boats. any one of them if they were wider or narrower, by 4 inches all else remaining the same weight W/L , how much differance would that make to speed or power requirements. Is there a formula for figuring this out? Larry