Nicopress and 1x19

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by frolicsailing, Sep 7, 2007.

  1. frolicsailing
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    frolicsailing Junior Member

    Anybody used copper sleeves to terminate 1x19 ss wire?
    I found some info that Nicopress type sleeves might be use up to 1/4" wire and two sleeves should be used with over sized, heavy duty thimble.
    I wonder how big the thimble should be because 1x19 is quite stiff.
    Anybody have any experience with terminating 1x19 wire with copper sleeves?

    Thank you,

    Matt
     
  2. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    Yeah. I do all my own rigging. I happen to have used 7 x 19 5/32" wire last, doing up a jibstay. I used two sleeves per loop, which costs maybe 50 cents more, but is super-failsafe.
    I leave about 1/16" out, which can hook fingers, but plan to spread the wires out (like is done with poured lead or Norseman), and fill the spread-out wires with epoxy. This would prevent the wire getting back through the terminal EVER, and prevent fish-hooked hands.
    I like the swage method for the fact that it can be done without special equipment (at least beyond the two wrench-driven presses I own), and also because it is very inexpensive.
    George Buelher recommends bulldog clamps, I believe, but boy are they ugly!

    Regarding you question, the 1 x 19 is indeed stiffer, and it is very hard to find decent thimbles these days, particularly the solid ones with the drilled hole. What I see are thin and skimpy ss or galv, ones (BTW, it would be a cinch to make one's own solid aluminum ones using carbide router bits, etc.).
    I find that it really helps to have one or better, two small long-nose vice-grips (one locked into the machinist's vice, with the jaws clamping one side of the thimble to the wire--- wrap jaws of pliers with copper flashing to protect wire), and the other to clamp the other side of the thimble onto the wire. The two clamping points are at 3:00 and 9:00. You would ideally like the thimble to be reasonably snug in the loop.
    My experiment splaying the wire ends and filling with epoxy will happen at the end of this season. I will first test some 1/8" with a swage job that I purposely do not completely tighten. The epoxy "cone" on the wire-end will be pulled up tight to the sleeve, of course, and hopefully, if all goes well, it will go no further. We'll see. If it is successful, I am a happy man because I will know my splices can not fail.

    Alan
     
  3. frolicsailing
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    frolicsailing Junior Member

    Alan,

    Thank you for your response.
    I was thinking to use 1/4 1x19 ss wire, heavy duty thimble like this:
    http://www.stageriggingonline.com/hedust.html
    maybe welded where it is open... so it will withstand moderate shroud tension on the cruising boat.
    I was also going to use 3 copper sleeves on each end.
    My only concern is if I can bend 1/4' 1x19 over the thimble without any "side effects" to the strange of the wire...
    BTW, the boat is 29 ft. Ranger.

    Thank you,

    Matt
     
  4. Jratte
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    Jratte Junior Member

    Some food for thought, take it as you will.

    My rigging experience doesn't come on boats, but from being a stagehand. I've made up lots of cable lengths using nicopress (a trade name BTW) tools. From what I recall 1/4" and anything under doesn't require more than one sleeve. the other do not add any strength, this is not a case of more is better. It's just more is more expensive. There are proper tools used for crimping and they must be adjusted properly, get yourself a go-no go gauge to check the fitting after applying the crimps. Check with the manufacturer for the number of sleeves and number of crimps. HTH.
     
  5. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    I haven't any idea what that particular company means when they say "heavy duty". It could be they are parroting what the vendor has called the stuff.
    Dunno, except to say, solid thimbles must be available somewhere, and I would rather use solid ones if I could either find or make them. I appreciate what you're saying about welding them shut--- the more rigid the better.
    By the way, besides aluminum, you could also make lovely thimbles from that stuff... um... it's the stuff they USED to use to make cleats and blocks from... you know... the brown laminated wood/plastic stuff. Amazing compressive strength and a tough surface too. Just a bit of router work, and you could have dozens of them.
    Cause those regularly available thimbles are crummy.

    A.
     
  6. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    I would have to agree that two sleeves do not increase strength. What's wanted isn't strength, but security.

    If the first sleeve is faulty for whatever reason, then the second is going to prevent a catastophe. When a rigging wire lets go on a sailboat, it is usually a bad scene. The mast can break and people can be injured or killed.
    Of course an attachment is not made stronger by having two sleeves any more than a parachute has more strength because you also have an emergency chute.
    There is a thing called crevice corrosion that can attack stainless steel swaged within a copper sleeve. This is something that might affect a twenty year old boat, or maybe sooner or later or even never. A perfectly done swage is not exempt from this occurence--- in fact, the tighter the swage, the MORE likely that crevice corrosion will take place.
    So while in terms of strength, the second swage appears redundant, it is exactly like a second parachute in that it will be there if and when the first one fails. My cost for the 5/32" sleeves was 55 cents each I think. There are few bargains out there that are so cost effective. The likelihood of that swage connection failing was maybe 1000:1 with a single sleeve.
    If so, the likelihood of both failing is 1000 squared, or a million to one.

    A.
     
  7. frolicsailing
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    frolicsailing Junior Member

    There are some solid thimble available and they are still use commercially:
    http://www.unirope.com/endattachments/loop_back_solid_thimble.shtml
    http://www.certex.co.uk/dox/sup/wrt/th/st.html
    It is not difficult to make one but i was thinking to take it easy and customize thimble heavy duty thimbles (thicker wall) available in ship stores.

    But i am not sure if can bend 1/4 1/19 ss wire over the thimble without any side effects...?
    I saw copper sleeves on this type of wire but much thinner...
    I was thinking also about using 7/19 that is much more flexible but:
    1)Little wires are more exposed to corrosion
    2)1/19 of the same diameter is stronger
    3)splinters
    I will appreciate any ideas.
    I know that more sleeves will not add more strength but it's a backup and peace of mind. Worth to have, especially sleeves are not very expensive.

    And on the end what about poured sockets...
    I know that they are used commercially and they used to be use on sailboat rigging (bronze sockets for ss wire and galvanized for galvanized).
    They were filled with zinc and now special resin is used.

    Thank you,

    Matt
     
  8. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    The poured sockets are used on Herreshoff boats as per tradition. They are incorporated into the turnbuckles too. You can likely get them through Bristol Bronze in Rhode Island. Not cheap.
    You should definitely use 1 x 19 on a boat that isn't trailered. The flexibility of 7 x 19 is nice on boats that have their rigs taken down because they kink less.
    The thimble just needs to be larger, all things considered, if the wire's stiffer. Go up a size if you need to. The larger sizes ( 1/4" and over) WILL be a pain to put together. I am not so familiar with the larger sizes, but there are ways to wrap the wire tightly around the thimble using a vise and possibly even a wooden "mold" shaped such as to tap the wire/thimble down into a shallow mortise shaped to hold it together--- this could be a block of oak that's locked into a vise. It could even be split so that the wire is slowly compressed around the thimble as you tighten the vise.
     
  9. frolicsailing
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    frolicsailing Junior Member

    I just found piece of scrap 3/16 1*19 ss wire (couldn't find 1/4") and terminated it using two sleeves and 3/8 thimble (regular ss thimble). It was fighting a little but was easier than I thought. Outside strands separated a little on the thimble but it shouldn't be an issue.
    The week point is a thimble that looks good know but might not withstand the tension from the rig.
    So I think to reinforce it using ...ss welded insert or pour epoxy in and drill it (I am not sure if it going to work), pour zinc in the thimble (like poured sockets where made) or ... make a new thimble like Alan said.
    I also found "semi solid" thimble that might work:
    http://shop.precourt.ca/shopcart/product_info.php?products_id=700

    Thank you for all comments and ideas,

    Matt
     
  10. wolfenzee
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    wolfenzee Junior Member

    new member, rigging with nicopress

    Hiya,
    I was brought to this forum with a question concerning what I am doing to my boat. So I am now a new member. I have a William Atkin design 30' cutter, designed in 1936, built in 1972, present rigging has been there since 1982 (30 years of sea miles). My boat has lower, intermediate and cap shrouds, head stay, top stay, back stay and running backs. The cap shrouds and back stay were added after the fact and use 3/16 1-19, the rest uses 1/4 7-19 (not sure about the runners, but they are sort of light). Because of "soft eyes" (wire goes around mast and is nicopressed to it'self) it uses the more flexible 7-19 wire. All of the 7-19 wire used copper (unless such a thing as bronze nicopress sleeves exist) nicopress which has been there for 30 years successfully. I am about to replace all my rigging, keeping with nicopress and keeping with 1/4" wire, the 3/16 will go up one size (which is down one size from the 1/4".
     
  11. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    1X19 is not a good candidate for using a thimble. You will have to deform it a lot to make it bend. That style of wire is fairly rigid and made for swage fittings or Norseman type. If the wire is roll formed it will be almost impossible to bend it to a tight curve without damaging it.
     
  12. wolfenzee
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    wolfenzee Junior Member

    7-19 on the other hand is flexible enough. On my boat where nicopress was used (copper sleeves) 7-19 1/4"wire was used, on the capstays and back stay lighter wire was called for so 1-19 3/16" w/staylock was used. My rig held up quite well for 30 years and I will be putting on all 7-19 w/copper sleeves (going with staylock would cost me $1200 more than nicopress
     
  13. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    With 7 x19, its faster and cheaper to use a Flemish Eye splice. The Flemish eye is tuckless, takes less than one minute to perform and maintains 90 percent breaking strength of the wire . Seize the tail or copper sleeve and epoxy it. 2 Nicropress sleeves are normally used on 1 x 19 and as was pointed out , 1 x 19 doesn't like to bend tightly around a thimble...It will soon fail.


    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/nstm/ch613.pdf
     
  14. wolfenzee
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    wolfenzee Junior Member

    I would like more info on this so I can pass it on to my rigger. Because I have soft eyes I need to use 7-19 wire. I am also on a budget....I am really poor, I am not cutting corners on my rig, anything that wasn't done the way it was 30 years ago will be an up grade. But I would like to examine options.
     

  15. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The Flemish eye splice is what you usually see on guy wires for power and telephone poles.
     
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