New requierments for boats over 20ft.

Discussion in 'Stability' started by dougfrolich, Jul 16, 2012.

  1. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Ok then I submit. We will have to take a test. I don't mind doing one. Just come to MY boat and ask questions and ille take you out.

    Not that Yacht masters crap where you have to charter a boat half the size you already got and go out for a whole weekend with 6 polo neck tree huggers that drive a 2 CV Citroen and ask whats all the little numbers for all over this map.

    Im not sitting in a 36 foot Benetau cockpit singing roll roll roll your boat at 10pm with a shared 6 pack.
     
  2. Ike
    Joined: Apr 2006
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    Location: Washington

    Ike Senior Member

    Actually the regulation could be quite simple. The current standard used for small passenger vessels under 100 gross tons (but greater than 12 passengers) could be used. It requires use of a simple inclining experiment.

    That said, with over 20 years working in the Coast Guard Boating Safety program, I can say almost without a doubt that this will never happen. For the US Coast Guard to propose a regulation they must establish a need. The law (Title 46 US Code Chapter 43) specifically says:


    (a) The Secretary may prescribe regulations -
    (1) establishing minimum safety standards for recreational
    vessels and associated equipment, and establishing procedures and
    tests required to measure conformance with those standards, with
    each standard -
    (A) meeting the need for recreational vessel safety; and
    (B) being stated, insofar as practicable, in terms of
    performance;
    Also

    (c) In prescribing regulations under this section, the Secretary
    shall, among other things -
    (1) consider the need for and the extent to which the
    regulations will contribute to recreational vessel safety;
    (2) consider relevant available recreational vessel safety
    standards, statistics, and data, including public and private
    research, development, testing, and evaluation;

    This of course doesn't prevent the USCG from proposing such a regulation, but I doubt very much it would get beyond the first comment period. This has happened with numerous proposed regulations. Prop guards, kill switches, 17 character Hull ID numbers, etc. The list of proposed regulations that never made it into the books is far longer than the ones that are in the regulations. Just look at all the ABYC standards. Most of these will never become a regulation because establishing a need for a regulation is far more difficult than writing an industry consensus standard.

    I agree with those who say the skipper should bear the responsibility for this. In the final analysis it is the captain of the vessel's responsibility to make sure his vessel is operated safely. Lawsuits aside, there is some criminal liability here for grossly negligent operation which carries a five year jail sentence.

    Whether it will get to Federal Court or not is open to question. It will most likely be tried in a state court. We will see.
     
  3. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    I believe a common sense boat class is required. Just because you can afford a boat doesn't mean you know what to do with it. I do believe some type of class or licensing should be required. There are too many fools driving their high speed vessels at unsafe speeds and are clueless to all hazards.
     
  4. FMS
    Joined: Jul 2011
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    Location: united states

    FMS Senior Member

    It would cut into the industry by cutting the number of weekend boaters.
    A compromise would be licensing required to take more than x-number of passengers. Currently you have to be a captain to take paying passengers. Take paying out of the equation and make it x-number of passengers.
    A new maximum live load capacity plate for flybridges wouldn't hurt either.
     
  5. Eric Sponberg
    Joined: Dec 2001
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    Location: On board Corroboree

    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    Gentlemen,

    There has been an ad hoc group of people formed that is reviewing this case. Headed up by Eric Sorensen, the "On Powerboats" columnist for Soundings magazine, this group includes Dave Gerr, the head of Westlawn, Steve Dalzell, the head design instructor at the Landing School, and myself. We have taken a preliminary look at an analogue design for a 34' boat that is very similar in proportion and geometry to the Silverton 34. We do not have a copy of the lines of the Silverton 34 itself, but we are endeavoring to try to secure them for study. However, this hull model that we do have is similar in length, beam, draft, displacement, freeboard and has similarities in deck areas, deck heights, and hull profile.

    One of the things that we have found is that if you compare the loading of the boat with 27 passengers on board, distributed on board on all the decks, the resulting stability calculations appear to satisfy the requirements of the 46 CFR stability standards, a surprising result. It is also apparent, however, that compared to a full load condition of 4 people on board with full fuel and water, the 27-passenger load reduces righting arm by about 50%, it reduces the area under the positive side of the righting arm curve by about 60%, and it reduces the ratio of positive area to negative area by about 80%.

    We are about to do some more comparison and calculations of the Silverton 34 with the ISO-12217 stability standard to see what that reveals. For that, it would be essential and most accurate to have a copy of the Silverton hull lines, so that is why we are seeing if we can be provided with a copy.

    I think all of us in this ad hoc group think that there is very little wrong with the boat per se, if anything--it's a pretty conventional boat--but it was grossly overloaded. And while you cannot legislate against people doing stupid things, there is nevertheless a really big hole in what is required as posted information so that people are made aware of what is safe. For example, under federal law in the 33 CFR, recreational boats under 20' long have to have a capacity label for both number of passengers and weight on board. For commercial vessels under 46 CFR, the number of passengers has to be calculated and the boat provided with a stability book, and then they are licensed for those numbers of passengers. But for recreational boats over 20' long, there is no definition at all about how many people should be or could be safely on board the boat. Would it not be a prudent thing to have at least a notice of what a boat's passenger capacity should be? If that can be calculated simply and easily, would that not be a good thing?

    Personally, I am not sure that ISO-12217 would be the way to go--it is a fairly complicated set of calculations, and those have to be verified by an actual stability test. But the standard is available, and it is worthwhile to check it against the Silverton 34 and see what leads from there. Perhaps a simple requirement for a label on board that stipulates safe passenger carrying capacity can be achieved.

    Eric
     
  6. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    You can do what you like . we need a license to drive a car but the streets are still full of lunatics no matter what country you live in.

    The boat was overloaded this is not taught and is a feel that experience gives you.

    Second nature to those who know.
     
  7. Eric Sponberg
    Joined: Dec 2001
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    Location: On board Corroboree

    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    That's right, couldn't agree more. The thing is, there are people out on the water that simply don't know, that have to be told. Ideally, the education for all boaters would be comprehensive and universal, but it's not. So, maybe posting a number on the boat would at least make people aware.

    Eric
     
  8. quequen
    Joined: Jul 2009
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    quequen Senior Member

    Attached Files:

  9. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    The skipper should have is picture on the fron page of every boating magazine printed

    Personally the skipper of the boat is a idiot and because of his stupidity and ignorance lost his daughter becasue if his actions . He should be locked up and throw away the key ! 27 adults and or children on a boat that size is plain rediculous . Anyone in there right mind would say its overloaded and as for the insane lawyer saying it wasnt overloaded hes an idiot as well .if the court dosent find the skipper guilty then the want there bumps feeling as well .:(
     
  10. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member


    Its quite likley you could not say or do anything to him to make him feel worse.

    Its possible that putting him in prison may make him feel better.

    Then he looses his job, house, wife , and other children.

    Then when he gets out, the Government have to give him social and mental re rehabilitation until he gets so depressed he starts showing sign of mental disorder and signs up for boat forums.
     
  11. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Some people never learn ! is that what you trying to say ?
    He must have mental disorder already !! becasue he sure wasnt thinking straight allowing all those people on one boat and at night as well !!
    Do you carry a bulk load of life jackets ?
    I have 4 adults jackets on my boat and if no one has on a jacket when im ready to turn the key they get out and stay on shore !!no ifs ,no buts ,thems the rules !:eek:
    My friends are boaties and all think the same !!:)
     
  12. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    No he did'nt know any better he had not learned because he was not tought --I bet he knows now.

    No I do not have bulk load of jackets --would that make me a better driver.

    I have 2. One that is adjusted to fit me with my name on it so I don't pick up the wrong one, do you? Although I am a power boat the missus has a harness, but thats not much good if the boats is sinking.

    I don't charter -ever and I don't have any friends and even if I did I would not take them out on my boat.

    Boats are dangerous in bad hands and a good healthy respect --and fear---for the sea is better than a life jacket or EPIRB.
     
  13. fast company
    Joined: Mar 2012
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    Location: united states

    fast company Junior Member

    Sad. The article says the three deaths were children who were in the cabin. If an adult had been with them things might have turned out differently. If nothing else it's a reminder to go over emergencies life jacket and safety gear and escape routes with everyone on the boat especially young ones.
     
  14. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Pointless --kids just dont do what they are told especially in panic situation.

    I wont have kids anywhere near me untill they can speak and work and are of some use to me.

    If an adult had been driving it might be a better outcome.
     

  15. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    he did'nt know any better he had not learned because he was not tought --I
    TAUGHT !! why do people have to be taught ?? its only logics and common sense in all this .logics and common sense are inherted from the parents usually . ofall the adults and kids on board some one must have throught to them selves hell theres not much room are you sure we arnt over loaded ?? :confused:
    The 27 people must have been standing or sitting on each other !!
    Did you Look at the picture of the police launch as well theres about 7 or 8 big guys up on the fly bridge of that boat as well !!
     
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