new (old) option!

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by Starfish, Mar 12, 2008.

  1. Starfish
    Joined: Feb 2008
    Posts: 42
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    Location: RI

    Starfish Junior Member

    Well i have been looking around for a used boat still. Some of you
    read my For-An-aft post. I decided that was too much for me too handle
    from scratch. I have been looking at flickas. In the last day or so
    i ran into a boat for sale that is all there, but needs upgrade work.
    (i already understand its a old boat, and have researched
    what will be needed for repair, upkeep, so no need too get into that)
    This boat is a 1934 Alden sloop motor sailer. Condition will be known
    after a survey (by a pro).

    I need too learn in short order HEHE :p what too look for, too
    save myself $$$ in the next step, survey. I don't want too
    pay good money for a survey if i can see there is major problems.
    The way i figure it, if i can see problems (with my low experiance)
    then no doubt there are worse problems lurking. So any wood boat
    pros (people that work, not just read on these boats) could give me
    a run down on the most important things too look for when viewing
    a old boat like this?

    Also:

    I would love some info on the design goals of a 1934 motorsailer
    from John Alden. I have read differant views on this. One say's
    that they were 60-30 motor sailers, and the sails were for steadying
    ect. but this boat only has a 35 gallon tank. the owner says the boat needs
    15+ knots too sail fair, which makes me wonder if its more designed
    too power. I would think a power based sailing boat would need more then 35 gallons????
    The name is shrimper. Here is a link too see it.
    its very close too me, and the type of boat i seem too love.
    Design # 575

    http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=17504&url=

    Thanks all!
     
  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I'm familiar with the model boat you're looking at. She's a good sailor if the tall rig is on her, unfortunately she's got the short rig, which is typical of a motorsailor.

    Any 74 year old yacht will have a host of issues. This boat was built quickly and inexpensively. She wasn't intended or built to last 3/4's of a century. Since she's had her galvanized fasteners removed, a major difficulty has been addressed, but her big iron ballast can't be doing nice things to her relatively new bronze fasteners and running gear.

    Nothing short of a qualified survey will help you access her needs and she'll have plenty of them. Coupled with the fact you're dealing with a broker, who will be gathering up a healthy portion of the selling price, should provide you a clue to her real value.

    There's no "Cliff's Notes" on a project like this. Triple her purchase cost and you'll have an idea what it will cost to bring the old gal back to a fine finish and good working form.
     
  3. Starfish
    Joined: Feb 2008
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    Location: RI

    Starfish Junior Member

    :p
    I assumed with the name of Alden on her, she would have been built
    strong????? Everything i read says his OFFSHORE designs where
    true offshore capable?????

    What is the Iron ballest problem with the new bronze?

    The tall rig's size? this boat says 52'?

    Worth upgrading too the tall rig?

    is this the type of boat restored that will hold its value
    as long as the work is in line with the plans from Alden?

    Wanna do some resto work on her, if i bring her too FL?
    (as long as i can live on her while we work!) :p

    Ps: no clue how i got that :p uptop, but i cant edit it LOL
     
  4. Starfish
    Joined: Feb 2008
    Posts: 42
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    Location: RI

    Starfish Junior Member

    Anyone,

    How long can a well done caulking on seams last on a old boat?

    could it be original on a boat from 1930's and still good????

    This boat has been on the hard 3 years. is this a good thing?

    Anyone in Md wanna spend 3 months solid working on floating this thing
    with future use benifits. If i do this i wanna work 6 days a week
    full time for 3 months. My only short term goal for this boat
    is too get it safe too use, with the work well done. I can work inside
    after its in the water. (if the boat needs too be torn apart from inside
    too fix major problems, im not going too buy it,.... survey)
     
  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Starfish, some up dates on the boat you're looking at. It was a development of design number 558, which was a motorsailor and a true one at that.

    Here's 558's sail plan as originally drawn.

    [​IMG]

    As you can see she was a gaffer and the rig sized for her expected level of sailing performance.

    A look at her accommodations shows the typical arrangements of the era, comfy and snug, by modern standards.

    [​IMG]

    A 3/4 view of the original (only one built), again with her doused gaff rig.

    [​IMG]

    The limited amount of information from the two sectional views show a burdened form for a sailor. It shows a form that will be a comfortable ride in a lump of sea, but don't expect sparkling sailing abilities. A fine real motorsailor if you ask me.

    Clearly she's been re-rigged and there's no way she's carrying her origional caulking.
     
  6. Starfish
    Joined: Feb 2008
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    Location: RI

    Starfish Junior Member

    Upps Dub' post!
     
  7. Starfish
    Joined: Feb 2008
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    Location: RI

    Starfish Junior Member

    Thanks for the update, im going too go see her on Monday.
    After doing some research, and looking at the Alden design site
    at that pic you posted, on thing you said confuses me,
    though i understand most likley your right hehe :D

    "Clearly she's been re-rigged"
    If you look close at the two boats Yachtworld link,
    And your pic. The mast looks too be in the same place
    And same design. Both sloops? What are you seeing
    that shows she has been re-rigged? I assume you mean
    mast changed from drawn design in a re-rig???

    Thanks again, looking forward too seeing her!

    She has a perkins 4-108 in her (needs connected)
    What can i look for too see if she was pickled the RIGHT
    way for winter storage?
    Is this engine a good reliable one, ssuming good working condition?
    Why would a motor sailer only carry 35 gallons of Fuel?
    is that engine a good reliable motor? (assuming working condition)
    Good match for that boat?
     
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I don't know the qualities for the engine/reduction/prop/hull form combination as far as GPH, but it's possible she sips fuel in a miserly fashion, requiring little tankage. Increasing tankage is a reasonably simple thing and shouldn't be a deal killer.

    Reliability in most engines is care specific. Take poor care of a good engine and it will be unreliable. Take good care of a questionable powerplant and it will be reliable. A power train package is solely dependent on the user for it's longevity and reliability.

    In the era that 575 was drawn, the basis was the previous 558 hull form, which original wore a gaff sloop rig. My assumption is the rig was converted to Bermudian at some point, which usually involves moving things around a fair amount (including masts). It very unlikely that much of the original rig is intact, though possible.
     
  9. Starfish
    Joined: Feb 2008
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    Location: RI

    Starfish Junior Member

    wnet and look at her today. I belive your right, she is a Amrconi rig.
    The owner (very nice person btw) said he belives that was original,
    but im willing too bet she was converted from a gaff rig. no worries
    After seeing the mast step, im willing too bet the mast ect is in the same
    spot as built, just converted too a marconi at some time. ill put her back
    as built if the plans from Mystic seaport show her as a gaff rig.
    I was shocked that the decks had no sign of rot, all the decks tops ect
    were mush free. The caulking is coming out of the seams, but there are
    places where you can see the wound cotton. (kinda cool) and belive it or not
    its still white.....he said 3 times that the boat dosent need cotton packed
    just a re caulk. (ill find out for sure when someone with a clue looks! Ain't me!) :D i did see one rib that was cracked, so that needs a sisterd job
    i would guess. Boats bilge was dry, the SS standing rigging was rust free
    and the all turn's were soild bronze. is it normal too be able to see
    a little light comming through some planks from inside the engine room?
    he said that the boat was tight, and those would swell when boat
    is splashed. Not sure what too think about that. Two areas of concern
    too me so far,

    The keel boats dont look so hot...Whats involved with fixing them?
    And there is a bronze strip on the bow, right at the front edge.
    On the curve there is bad wood about 1" from the back of that bronze strip
    in a 1' section. Right were the bow turns under the boat towards the keel.
    How hard is it to fix this area after removing that bronze piece?

    Kinda hard too take someones word for it on the engine running before
    boat was put on hard, but i give him the benifit of the doubt, no way too tell
    for sure, and i dont have 1500 too spend on pulling it too see if it runs ok.
    So at this point i assume its done, look for a replacment, and maybe i get lucky!

    I have some pics on the cell phone, illl see about getting them uploaded soon.


    PS: anyone in the Balt. Md area like too look at classic wood boats????
    Sure could use a pair of wood boat eyes too look her over! :D
     
  10. Starfish
    Joined: Feb 2008
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    Location: RI

    Starfish Junior Member

    Here is the project! :D
    let me know what ya think. Any feedback
    is good feedback at this point.
    Any of you eye spys, that can look at rig, ect ect
    and give feedback would be kinda cool too!
     

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  11. alan white
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Location: maine

    alan white Senior Member

    Hard to tell what you've got there------ if you can find someone in your area who could do a quick survey to see if a more in-depth survey would be worthwhile, I would do it if you love the boat. Most boats that old require a tremendous effort and a few years to bring back. Replacement cost must be around 300k at least, and there are those who have spent that in labor and materials just to restore a treasure like that and still weren't done.
    Yet, a few old boats have had easy lives. Often they have been moored in cold salt water without being hauled every season and their owners kept the fresh water out by paying attention to the deck.

    You may want to inspect a few fasteners. As far as the keel bolts are concerned, often the damage is buried in the middle of the bolt where a 3/4" bolt, for example, is rusted down to almost nothing. No way to tell at first glance.

    Don't believe the seller no matter how nice he seems to be. He may even have convinced himself of a few things that will turn out to be untrue.

    Alan
     
  12. Starfish
    Joined: Feb 2008
    Posts: 42
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    Location: RI

    Starfish Junior Member

    thanks for the feedback, I understand love is blind (owner) hehe.
    Good suggestion on finding a person to do a pre survey,
    i posted up that exact request in a wood boat forum about 3 hours ago.


    If anyone in the MD area likes too look at old classic wood boats,
    and has some free time and experience, that would be a HUGE HELP!
    i can pick up also. maybe even splurge on a few crab cakes!
    Boat is in ANNP. area.
     
  13. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Having grown up in that area, I can tell you there are many very qualified people to access the boat.

    Having said that, it's way past your needs and abilities. Nothing personal, but if you can't handle $1,500 to check out the engine, the most important element of a motorsailor, then you're way out of your league on this yacht. A good survey may cost half that. A few months in a marina's slip will cost you that. There's nothing cheap about owning a yacht that size, condition nor of that era.

    My 48'er cost about $500 per month for her slip.
     

  14. Starfish
    Joined: Feb 2008
    Posts: 42
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    Location: RI

    Starfish Junior Member

    Well you have been a help to me up to this point, maybe your having a bad
    day But, what i didnt write is (and should have read)
    i dont want too sink 1500 into that engine, when i have a feeling its toast anyway. i would rather just put that money too new power which i will buy early 09 after the other work is done... Im not into doing stuff half ***.
    2nd: The fee for storage is not anywhere close too what your paying.
    matter of fact, storage at this yard equals less then a basic date on friday night..... Per month......
    Im not going into this boat planning on paying anyone anything, ill learn,
    practise, and do all my own work. Im not sold on this boat anyway untill
    i find someone too look her over, and let me know what is needed
    if its too much i have enough common sence, on my own, too figure that out in rather short order.
     
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