New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

Richard,
glad to see you are reading and quoting the rule. Petro is the creator of the rule, he has said he will consider changes popular with the fleet when there is a fleet.

My opinion (outsider that might want to start the next fleet) would be
the intent is exclude
-tooling that is costly in relation to the book value of the part (pick the %) note difference between tooling and equipment.
-tooling and equipment that are not common among amateurs or require skills not common to amateurs -can a novice produce a good part just by seeing a video of it being done?
-machinery that costs more than the $600, is dangerous, or very unpleasant -excluded ahead of time just because this is supposed to be fun.

The escape clause to these would be if the participant offers the skill or equipment to all participants. Example a Tig welder could use his skill and equipment if he did the same for all participants. This is my schoolteacher/gum clause 'i hope you brought enough for everyone!'. It is the same approach I apply to materials -If someone finds a good deal and everyone can participate, that item will not be illegal when it wins races. This class is as much about the build as it is about the race. I know quite a few guys that have lots of impressive tools that have not turned out much product. I would love to see them apply them to this class.

I understand there is value in going more 'least common denominator' -big box materials, jigsaw and a glue gun. But honestly, they can still participate at that level. If they don't have fun because it doesn't win they likely not people you want to spend much time with anyway.

 

Having participated in the thread for a long time I would characterize it as targeted at the US in that it assumes there are no very similar options. There was a large amount of input from UK, NZ, and AU sailors predicting the winners and faults based on experience but they just don't understand the local market here and many places around the world.

About markets that have a history of development classes -if they have lots of options and they are sick of them I can see this is of little attraction. The only thing it might offer is nostalgia on a limited budget. They have the culture. Is there any value to a budget competition?

You mention emerging markets. I think they will be very interested in some of the budget conscious developments -particularly what is done with wood and some materials with poor properties. I have seen some indigenous wooden boat builds in other threads and am so envious of the materials they have. This might be another consideration for materials tools and processes -what if they were limited to things available in emerging markets?

About creating an 'international class' -I think it was CT who pointed out that this class is almost certain to produce fleets that are supremely adapted to the local waters and it is unlikely that the 'home team' will not dominate. This is true of all development classes and more so of this one due to the constraints. If the number of local fleets expands enough someday there might be events that include building a portion of the boat locally (the part that is hard to ship) as well as sailing.

If your goal is to make common boats that will be be used to determine the best sailor internationally... that is of no use here in the US or anywhere else I know because it already exists in one design.

 

I'm not quite sure what you are saying. But, for the sake of argument, let's take the OK dinghy, which on the face of it would be ideal for this class.

It is very popular worldwide, so there are no 'local" waters. It was popular behind the Iron Curtain so could be built using limited materials.

So - how many have been built in the USA since 1956?

Richard Woods

 

The OK looks like a fine boat that would be very difficult to build for $600. I have no idea how many have been built in the US but I suspect not enough.

Not sure how this relates. OK is a one design class as far as I can see.

 

Forget about price for the moment, except that the OK is one of the few international classes that can be built in wood, including wood spars.

My point was that the OK meets the concept of the class and has been built world wide for nearly 60 years.

So why hasn't it been built in the USA?

And if not in the past why now? It's not as if US citizens don't have the money or time or places to sail.

I've said many times that the US has a different attitude to the rest of the world when it comes to sailing. For example, they have "yacht clubs" not "sailing clubs", they have an "opening day of the season". You learn to sail as a child, a few still sail at college, but most give it up and buy a real boat with an engine and go fishing.

So what's different now? Anything? If not then Jammer Six is right, at least as far as the USA is concerned.

RW

 

The OK could and can be built competively in wood. I doubt you could get a competitive rig in timber over the current carbon spars, as Richard well knows. In the UK build numbers are very low and most are FRP. I know one guy who has won several Worlds and I don't think he would say it is a strict one design..... Of course a carbon stick would more than blow 600 dollars!

To my eyes there almost no real One Design classes, there are always minute differences which alter boatspeed. In the past at one time some sailors used to select the best L**** by testing the mast rake on a dozen or so brand new ones. They were of course all different!.

I have no knowledge of the sailing culture in the US so cannot comment. However even in Europe it seems rare for there to be development classes or even a large number of classes other than those adopted by 'official' bodies. A bit like ISAF don't really know how to deal with our UK boats and rules and you have to condense the entire rules to a couple of bits of A4 paper. One manufacturer classes may keep the 'authorities' happy but are not necessarily the healthiest way to run a class.

Development classes and those more progressive one design ones have managed to transition quite well generally if they have maintained enough excitment from the sailing quality and have garnered a productive following of enthusiasts.

I'm intrigued by the 'Opening Day of the Season'? what's that? I sail all year round unless the water is frozen....lovely stuff when the sheets freeze half solid in a Force 5+ and the only ice free part is the deck where you are currently sitting - as I've done on the tidal Thames a few times.

 

I posted this on a different forum to give people from the US an idea of what dinghy racing is like in the UK

Surprisingly, dinghy sailing is a year round sport in the UK. The winter "frostbiting" races are very popular

One of the biggest races is the Bloody Mary, sailed at my brothers sailing club, at Queen Mary reservoir in SW London. I have done the race a few times, and I am sure so too has Sukisolo.

It is held the second Saturday in January, so in mid winter. It is a "pursuit race" so slow boats (usually childrens classes) start first, then progressively faster boats, with the idea that everyone finishes together. It's open to pretty much any dinghy so you'll see a big selection of classes

So here are four videos from four different years

The first might put you off sailing for life, so only watch the first 30 seconds unless you are brave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcCfE9T_QQM

The second only has 3 minutes of actual sailing but this time it was nice weather so lots of boats were out enjoying themselves

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6K0i5ungWU

The third was this years event, a bit breezy as you can see. 230 entries, only 70 finishers (the stills stop at about 2 mins in, then it is all video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4i8r4hE5kU

And the last is a time lapse, quite fun and shows what happens when everyone finishes together - the launching ramp gets crowded!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBjGns2X34A

RW

 

Richard, clearly I don't know with any certainty why something did not happen. I will give you my opinion if you give it some consideration.

Regarding why not the OK in the US
-it sure looks like a European thing to me -continental not international
-it appears from a distance to be too similar in size and function to the Finn and laser -two huge classes subsidized by Olympic efforts.
-one design is most easily managed by a very limited manufacturing base -so parts literally come out of the same mold

Is it any surprise nobody wants to spend more to build to someone else's design, haul it across the ocean just to get their butts kicked by the local fleet? Would anyone care if they actually placed?

If you look at 'successful' one design classes in the US that can be home built from wood you have to severely stretch the meaning of success. They are regional at best. Lightning and thistle in the great lakes -many local favorites on the east coast and west. They ARE the local identity, high cost to be a big fish in a very small pond. Most are remnants of marketing efforts ages ago by the manufacturers and a yacht club.

The US has a very small minority of people that sail and a huge number of people that have a negative opinion of it. As such the marketing for this class is very different. It's not cheap wannabe classical, it's punk! The $600 is not because it wants to appeal to poor people who want a yacht. It's a challenge and a great statment -THIS IS NOT ANOTHER SAILING COMPETITION THAT GOES TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER its a battle of innovation. In the short run I expect this class will attract people with something to prove. In the long run I expect it will succeed or fail on how much fun people have in the time they dedicate to it.

J6 is an emotionally damaged troll with nothing better to do than wander bulletin boards belittling whatever is going on. Ignoring his kind is the first lesson of the internet. I can't say I read all his posts but I am pretty sure there was nothing in them that might contribute to success.

 

To make it clear, I am not picking on you, the USA or even supporting the OK class. Just using that as a basis for discussion

So, did you go to this page

http://www.okdia.org/index.php

If so you will see the list of countries where the OK is sailed, and where the Worlds Championships will be held. The last 4 years the world champion has come from NZL, AUS, GER, GBR while in 2003 it was won by an Indian - sounds pretty international to me!

You can also go to the USA page where you will see this

"USA Regatta Results: Unfortunately we don't have any results from regattas in the USA." But it does also say "There are some OK-Dinghy activities in Washington, Oregon, and now Texas, along with California."

Here is the US contact - Anthony Hernandez from LA - AZGalaxy@aol.com

I'm not saying you can win the Worlds with a wood boat and a wood mast (but people have done so) However you could enter them.

RW

 

A two thousand dollar tablesaw/jointer/bandsaw is larger, more powerful, more stable and safer, across the board, than a two hundred dollar tablesaw.

Promoting the cheaper saw is promoting a lower level of safety.

 

A progress report.

I understand the concern about tooling and available workshop facilities. We as a team have agreed to only use methods and processes easily duplicated by ordinary builders, a true “hardware store” build. We plan to pass these details on to the next ‘year’ as much as possible.

I will not be using vacuum bags, i am allergic to epoxies, and most of our mast speculation was to counter Richards proposed use of a used alloy mast. We just have to hope its fatigue life expires during the series.

As a team we are planning to use tarpaulin and similar for sails, and wood for the spars, admittedly with some engineering involved. We are given to understand tuning a mast to a sail, especially when both are used, is a long and involved process, at least we hope so.

We now have the lines for two boats, and draft lines for the third. We have the construction details for one, and partial details for another. They are quite dissimilar.

None are ‘Stitch and Glue” like Richard's, they are fairly conventional ply and stringer.

What happened to the “Javelin”? i assumed a Spencer Javelin of Antipodes fame, but now discover there are American Javelins too.

A frivolous question;

Are GoPro cameras to be recording at all times per my grandkids instructions?

 

Thank you Skyak. This might well be the greatest attraction for us as a group.

We race every second saturday all year round on a "big" boat, and the 'yacht club' from which it is sailed will not allow the participants into the clubroom after the race. Though there are many members of the 'yacht cliub' using the pool and other facilities, we, as sailors are relunctly allowed to use an outside picnic table to calculate results, and chat after the races.

We also notice the most popular affiliated sailing club when competing in international races in the PNW is the "Schooner" which is actually a bar (pub in the UK).

 

There is also an English Javelin. A Paul Wright build, Peter Milne design from the 1960's. Nice looking boat, I've never sailed one though

http://www.javelinuk.com/page.php?5

RW

 

Yup, several times, with a best (so far) of 38th out of over 330....

This year it was very, very, windy well into upper 30Kn at times, dying to something very comfortable by the finish. There were an awful lot of retirements and a lot of cold bodies, it was a bitter day.

Don't worry Alan, the pub/bar is a popular place here and most of Europe apres sail especially if the beer is cheap!

 

Richard, it still looks like Europe (and colonies) to me. I have never run across one that I can recall. For discussion sake, why would someone in the US build or buy an OK rather than a Finn or Laser? If you just want to race a dingy in the best competition you will gravitate to the Olympic classes.

It seams to me like going in circles to discuss one design vs development but with a very limited density of sailors like we have here, fewer OD classes is better for competition. Development classes are the spawning ground for new products. When (or if) boat variation declines with participation increasing, the fleet moves toward one design. It appears that foiling moth may make the move (a rare occasion) with the wasp introduction.

BTW did you watch the Steve Clark video I posted a few pages ago? It was a critical look at what makes regattas bad and some ideas or directions for improvement.

About your BM event videos -looks like fun. With the wide variety of boats it would be very interesting to see the handicapping over the years against the results at various wind conditions. A reliable handicap for dingys seems very difficult to me.

BTW the frostbite class in the US is a good example for building and attitude for this class. Another example that comes to mind for me is the Italian 10ft trimarans. Great fun if not great competition.