New High Performance Monofoilers

Foiler R wins Leander(NZ National Championship)

Sean M and Dan Leech won the Leander in the foiler-using foils in only some of the races.
R Class website has an updated report:
http://www.rclass.org/leander/2009/leander-2009
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Here are some shots of the second of my 3 tris, "Precarious!" which was 22ft -- taken on a dead day where foils were of no use so you don't see them attached to the amas. (Previously I said there were 2 tris, but forgot about the first one which was 17ft. She flew on one piercing foil under the main hull.) The 3rd and latest tri has a larger main hull and is lighter; otherwise pretty much the same. The idea is to be fast, inexpensive and simple.
http://s371.photobucket.com/albums/oo159/johnelliott24/Precarious the trimaran/

 

Thats impressive,John! How do you have one surface piercing foil under the main hull?

 

I just wanted to test the bigger tri idea so I threw together a boat with the amas and one foil under the main hull -- with no consideration for the fact that it would not be optimal at all. This way I could see how the amas worked and test one foil (strength with all of the boat, me -- everything on it, ability to lift, etc...) with very little effort. Yes, it did not make sense for sailing. It just tested the components. This boat was 17ft long and only carried 110 sq ft of sail area. On this third boat I plan to try it with foils on the amas and stern first and then add 2 under the center of the main hull (they will effectively be a 'V' but not joined at the bottom so that they can swing up while sailing due to the kelp.) The amas will be higher so that the boat can cant like a Moth. On light days it will cant to leeward with the foils up out of the water and in air to windward, ie by adjusting your weight to cause her to sail on the center foils and either the windward or leeward ama foil she will cant. This might be a a bad idea since a gust could throw the boat onto the leeward ama and cause her to spin. I don't know. But the idea of canting the whole tri like this attractive.

 

In the words of Frank Bethwaite:

We are developing a strap-on kit to put the 49er on foils (talk to Graham Hanna) The Tasar, with its compact, efficient, tight-leech rig, may just become one of the fastest foilers in the years ahead. (I explained to Martyn that the 49er has too much sail to be really fast. On calculation 42 knots in a 20kt wind looks the fastest possible. This assumes that all the sails above about ten feet are at zero coeff of lift. But it has adequate sail for tremendous fun and spectacular speed in the 10 to 20 knot wind speed range. The Tasar, heeled to windward with its smaller rig and one on trapeze looks much more like a Skeeta.)

Could the Tasar become the people's foiler?

 

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Did you mean Tasar or 49er? I know about the 49er but the Tasar would be real interesting. Where did you see this?

 

Hi Doug,

From the Tasar site:

http://www.tasar.org/news/2009/designers_report.htm

It sounds like its still a pipedream, but I think it is important to note that Frank Bethwaite, probably the most influential designer of the last 20 years, is at least thinking about sticking foils on a mainstream boat.

 

Really? What has Frank designed in the past 20 years that had great influence? What were the designs, who was influenced by them?

 

I don't think so, PI. The boat retails for USD$11,500. Jam a pair of T-foils and the attendent controls, wands, etc. on the dude and you have a boat that will probably fetch $17,500 on the US market.

That price will not call the folks out in droves in any numbers that might get remotely close to a People's anything, IMHO.

I don't see it ever happening.

What you need is cheap. Cheap equals heavy, heavy equals can't possibly foil when it comes to a one, or two person product... even if it is made in China and you have the People's Workers chained to the laminating table with 24/7 face masks in place with food and waste tubes going full blast.

The type of boat that it is and the stuff that it takes to make it go... a foiler does not lend itself to a People's version and will likely not in your lifetime.

This is said as the Chinese Middle Class turns its eyes on Africa for the next round of enslaved affordable labor. But, what is after that once the swinging pendulum runs its course... penguins and Eskimos?

No, I'm afraid that Mr. Lord's Orwellian vision has no legs on which to run.

 

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Wow! That is interesting! Don't think its a Peoples Foiler but who knows. I'll have to look at the numbers but it may not have enough SA to foil in really light air-but neither does the R Class. Exciting to see who's thinking about what these days! Thanks, "Pi Design".
Just as a matter of interest: the W/SA of the Tasar with a 300lb crew is 3.67. The Moth, RS600FF and even Mirabaud are 2.558 or less except the R class foiler which is somewhere around 3.15 . The smaller the number the lighter air the boat should takeoff in(as a very rough first look).

 

I don't know why your posts are always so confrontational - I guess you just like to stir things up - but I'm sure you are fully aware of the boats FB has been involved with, and the influence he (and the rest of his family) has had. If not, I strongly recommend you read HSP1 and HSP2.

 

I guess it depends on your definition of a people's foiler. I don't want to get stuck in a semantic argument, and you're right - it will never sell in the numbers of a Hobie or a Laser, but then perhaps nothing ever will again?
But boats like the Tasar and RS200 are popular (in the relative sense of the small world of dinghy sailing). I would describe both as 'people's boats' in as much as they are affordable and manageable - the RS200 has turnouts of over 100 at UK Nationals, the Tasar about 50. It may not be a revolution, or a get-rich-quick scheme, but if a foiling Tasar can be made to work and retail for less than £10k (approx $15k) then I think it would sell a few - although the idea is probably still ahead of its time at the moment.

For what its worth, I doubt it will happen, but the very fact that Bethwaite has thought about it perhaps shows that the concept of a popular foiler is gaining momemtum.

 

I don't know what is happening in the UK, but the US economy is looking pretty harsh for any recreational product that is kicking along at $15,000 right now. That's a might big hurdle to overcome for anything much less a product with as many other issues for everyday sailors.

Over at Sailing Anarchy just this morning, Australian foil enthusiast, Phil Stevo had this to say on the subject of Bethwaite's anointing...


[quote name='Phil S' date='Feb 20 2009, 12:25 AM' post='2150653']
Fantasy!!
FB has done a lot of good for our sport of dinghy sailing, particularly in modernising the northern hemishrere. The *ers have at least brought them up to what AUS and NZ had in the 20th century.
But foiling is 21st century and the Taser is very 1970s. Its " tight leach sails" are way too full for foiling and the glass hull is way too heavy as are a lot of the people who sail them.
What the moths have shown is that to go fast upwind and downwind in a wide variety of winds, you need very adjustable flat sails and light platforms. A moth has very little righting moment, it goes fast because it is so efficient. Full sails and heavy hulls are not efficient.
The foiling ferries and 49er do however show that you can make anything fly if you put enough mechanical horse power in it.
A 30kg Taser (or anything) with a new flat rig would be another story?
[/quote]


Very interesting set of observations. You simply fix what ails the Tasar and Pow! you have a ready made foiling boat. That's kind of freeing, actually. It means that my old, beat-up dining room table could become a foiler if it were light enough and rigged correctly. It gets a guy to thinking. ;-)

One of the other "issues" I mentioned above is the exposed susceptibility of the foil system, itself when it comes to damage to the foils and disruption of the lifting surface. Even though he has gone to great lengths to discredit my observations in this area... apparently even our guy, Doug Lord, has suddenly changed his tune on the topic. Witness the quote below, also from Sailing Anarchy:


QUOTE (Doug Lord @ Feb 18 2009, 04:17 PM)

" How about the control system if you nail a fish or other relatively small impact? "

At the time, the conversation involved the control system on the foils of the new Swiss, Bladerider-esque, foiler.

A damaged control system due to a relatively small impact, huh? Remarkably concise observation of how vulnerable these things actually are when it comes to damage potential. Too bad it took Doug three years to come to that conclusion.

So, right here we've got two major issues that will prevent the foiler from becoming a People's craft of any merit... Over the top expense for the average guy and routine susceptibility to anything that can disrupt, or damage the lifting surfaces.... "a small impact" indeed.

I do not think that foilers will be going the way of the dinosaurs in the near future. I also do not think that they will ever penetrate the market in anything like stunning numbers. In fact, until a new set of structural material realities hit the market, along with simpler, less expensive build systems... we aren't going to be seeing any boat truly becoming a People's variety in the way that the concept has been so enthusiastically projected on these pages.

 

Hi Chris,

I can't access SA here, so will check that out later.
With regards to a People's Foiler, I am in two minds. On the one hand, any foiler will be more expensive than a non-foiler, due to the added equipment. It will also be considerably more fiddly, less practical, harder to sail and higher maintenance. All these things mitigate against foiling reaching the masses. However, there is always (present economic climate aside - and who knows how long that wil last?) a small portion of people willing to try something new, something that advances the status quo. £10k is a lot of money, but par for the course for many boats here - and they do sell.
It depends to some extent on whether one wants to foil to get max performance, or merely for the sake of foiling as a thing to do. If it is the latter, then provided the sails are cut to suit, then I can't really see why anything can not foil e.g. a Laser or a Tasar. Sure it would need bigger foils than a Moth, which would give a lower top speed, and yes, you may need to beef up the transom, but I am convinced you could get a Laser airborne if you wanted. I don't see the weight of the boat as a huge hurdle (within reason) - you just need higher lift foils, either through more area or higher Cl. There is a practical limit obviously, for structural reasons and to limit foil span, but I'm sure a Laser could fly. Question is - does anyone want to fly one?

 

Oh, I've read FB's first book, and am waiting on delivery of the second.

FB is the king of self-promotion. If you believe everything he writes, well, not everyone does.

Frank is not Julian.

The only boat I am aware of that FB has designed in the past 20 years is the 59er. Not very successful or influential.

Most of the things that came out of Frank's shed over the years were down his own path and not really followed on by others.