New High Performance Monofoilers

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1)This is absolutely false! I make a serious effort to find out whats going on in the development projects quoted in this thread-to the point of contacting the people doing the work. I talk to many of these guys on a regular basis and
not only do I learn a lot I try to pass it on to the forum thru this thread-and a lot of people think I do a damn good job of it.
2) This is worse than false-it is a deliberate lie: I have been sailing for 54 years now and have sailed and raced many types of boat from the gaff headed Fish class, to the Windmill, Thistle, Flying Dutchman, Windsurfer,Catamaran windsurfer, numerous catamarans and two trimarans and a cat of my own design. I've been involved in foiling for over ten years-first with rc boats including designing,building and marketing the worlds first production rc foiler the F3. I've done numerous model experiments that have led to my new experimental boat. I've got a few hours(including foiling) my first full size foiler-the first bi-foiler(that I know about) in the US. Not a great success but a great learning experience since it was designed over 10 years ago. I've had the great pleasure to work with Dr. Sam Bradfield in development work on his 40 ' Scat. And the second hydrofoil I sailed was one of his Rave multifoilers-which I sail to this day.
3) Again, not true -I make it a point to try to understand the negatives(both real and imagined) about foiling and where I can shed light on the FACTS.
4) This is pure malarkey since-as anyone who reads what I post knows-I try to quote the developers of these exciting boats directly-I let them do the talking. And again my sources for the information posted here are the developers themselves!
5) PLEASE form your own opinions-but PLEASE get the facts first! Thats the whole point of this thread-to provide the facts about these high performance monohull foilers. A very small group of anti-foilers attempt to disrupt this and other threads about foilers but if you look carefully you'll see that they almost NEVER post any facts-unless they make them up-they cannot enter into a discussion without personal attack and ridicule as their foundation. Too bad.....

 

Doug, your participation here and on Sailing Anarchy is done with an agenda - promotion of primarily foiling and other fringe high performance technologies. Your content shows this to be self evident. You do not foil, have not presented any evidence of foiling, and have not presented any evidence of having sailed in the past five years. Your sailing activities appear to be limited to the Internet.

Can you present any pictures of you sailing in the past five years? Evidence of Yacht Club membership? Any people willing to advocate to either of the above?

Your age is not evidence of sailing. I seriously doubt you sail at all. You posts regarding performance sailing are not representative of Portsmouth Handicap data in regards to fastest boats, and your obvious lack of around the buoys racing experience leads you to claim that peak speeds attained (Moth Foilers) are more relevant than performance across all conditions.

Models are useful tools for providing limited feedback on concepts, but not everything scales.

Facts are conclusions drawn from data generated in repeatable circumstances via experimentation and peer review. This data is generated in response to a thesis postulated documenting the issue and questions to be asked. Facts are not tidbits gleaned from Internet posts by individuals. You seem to support a theory that facts are found in blogs and forums.

Many of the things you represent as facts are just posts in sources like Rohan Veal's blog. This is anecdotal evidence - not facts.

People are perfectly capable of following links and reading sources themselves. When you quote other people's work, you have a habit of quoting only the sections that support your claims. Better to post links to the original person's work and let people draw their own conclusions rather than yours.

Doug - what exactly is a fact you? How does it become a fact? Who gets to decide if a blog post is a fact?

People are perfectly capable of forming their own opinions about topics discussed here and elsewhere - and many people have the education and experience to make their own determination as to the quality of your content.

Doug: Some pertinent questions:

1) When was the last time you sailed a full size boat?
2) When was the last time you foiled a bi-foiler?
3) Can you present ANY evidence of this? This would include a Yacht Club staffer or director willing to vouch for you.

 

Unfortunately, Doug, literal truths to you are only facts when they support the things which you wish to champion. You do tend to ignore all other properly presented facts that do not support your precious arguments. This has been shown time and again as real experts in their fields have put forth their hard won opinions, only to see you begin flinging vitriol filled accusations in their direction. The observations by Bistros regarding your responses to Bora and Simon are classic examples of the above mentioned behavior pattern. These are two guys who would flat-out leave you in their wake should you have the sand to go out on the water against them. Yet, you refuse to engage, honestly, that which they have to say.

This is not only disengenuous, it's hovering very close to fraud.

The day you start to acknowledge the arguments of others through proper conversational skills, is the day you will begin your real journey. Up until now, you have only painted one side of the house in which you live.

I think that you can do much better. There's no time like the present.

 

Nonsense----

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1) What an absurd comment! I have no need to present "evidence" to someone who has shown a willingness to make absolutely false statements about me-regardless of the facts. Suffice it to say that my work and the numerous pictures of boats I have designed,built, sailed and foiled speaks for me. I would hope that no friend of mine would ever "vouch" for me as a result of the absurd comments made here(or on SA)-it is not necessary!
2) But foiler design scales remarkably well!
3) I use Veals site as just one of over a hundred sources of information-you are not in the real world when it comes to categorizing me,what I write, my sources, my experience and my knowledge!

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see my gallery for few pictures of boats I have designed, built(one off and/or tooling),sailed and/or foiled over the years.

 

Well,
Seems that Doug and Ernest need some (limited) support here. Yes, we cannot have des-information and editing of others posts. On the other hand, as an exampel, the forgotten critical load-cases of the canting-keels were early discussed by Doug and Ernest. The "surging phenomenon" as well as the load-case when the boat falls down a wave with the canting-keel in its extreme position was dealt with. To this date I not sure of what "surging phenomenen was", but the falling down the wave is more clear.
Regards,
Booster

 

I could add about 4 other doug invented terms if i cared to look back at all the times he told me I did not know anything. The one that always makes me chuckle is when he was pontificating about how l'Hydroptère does not generate any RM at all from being on the foils.

Oh well I do my fair share of not being able to communicate my thoughts but at least I dont tell people who are doing it that they are idiots

 

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What I said was that Hydroptere does not use an incidence change of the foils to generate RM like wand controlled fully submerged foils do-similar to,say,
Scat or the Rave.

 

The interesting point here is that bgulari is the current US Moth Class foiling leader (and National Champion) - and has consistently placed in the top ten worldwide in international Moth foiler regattas. Oh, yes he is also a qualified graduate Aeronautical Engineer, with extensive composite fabrication experience. He provides product testing and review to Andrew MacDougall (KA Sails), Bladerider and many other performance sailing product developers. He's also been known to be a top Melges helm that is in serious demand for regattas.

Here we have a undeniable expert in the field that has taken exception to Doug's representations in the past.

Doug DOES provide a valuable information collection function - doing people's surfing for them in effect, but it would be far more beneficial if he let people draw their own conclusions rather than imposing his own "theories" as an "expert".

--
Bill

 

Bistros!
True, but Doug and Ernest have a digging function as well. Remember the America's Cup in Auckland some yeras ago when the challangers started to "let" water come in to the boats, so the displacement was "undeliberately" increased. Doug and Ernest showed some style and onle referred to what Dennis Conner did years earlier on an R-12. Established designer's with expertise and knowledge were shakened by what was revealed. We all know what happened. The NZ had in a legel way increased to displacement by carringing watar outside the hull inside the second appendage allowed by the rules. The NZ realized to late that the challangers carried water inside the hull. In a last attempt the NZ boat was taken to shipyard and rapidly modified. The rest is history. The increased loads causing the boom to brake, the mast to fall down and water over the deck. The digging function by Doug and Ernest et al must not be forgetten. Still, we cannot have des-information and retyping of other posts.
Regards,
Booster

 

I've clearly acknowledged Doug's "digging" function. He seems to have an amazing amount of time to trawl the Internet searching out pro-foiling information. My difficulties arise from his selective presentation of that information, representing anecdotal evidence as fact when it suits, and dismissing other information completely.

Doug's mission to promote foiling and other fringe performance technologies is perfectly evident from his post history. His representation that he is expert in these topics is suspect - and his repeated dismissal of requests to provide proof casts further doubt.

I would be happy to acknowledge that Doug is an information collector par excellence. My opinion on his selection, evaluation and interpretation of that information is not so high.

Cheers,

--
Bill

 

I have no idea who "Ernest" is, but please don't attribute things that "Ernest" may have said to Doug Lord.

When you mentioned earlier that Doug Lord provided some sort of insight into the engineering of canting keel mechanisms I read it and laughed out loud.

There is no doubt inmy mind that I would learn far more about foiling design, and also canting keel design, if Doug Lord never posted on this site. His antics have driven away people with actual knowledge.

 

Bgulari, Bistros, Paul B et al

Bistros, true again. Paul B, "Ernest" is Ernest Seaman (spelling?) a milder version of Doug present at the R/C site some years ago. Compare Andy Kaufmann as a mild version, with Tony Clifton the less mild. Bgulari, perhaps there is more to the other 4 invented terms that Doug and Ernest have created, than we first thought of. When one ask some good sailors about the trick to go fast one often get similar cloudy explenations. For instance, Michael Collberg, several times Swedish Champion in Albin Express and H-boat. When asked the about the trick to go fast upwind he answered: "The boat shall feel dead, but not totally dead, just dead enough." In i similar way Doug and Ernest may have a difficulties to communicate this feel in mathematical terms. In the automotive industry terms like Noise, Vibration, Harshness, Squeel, Judder, Misfire, Slowburn and so have caused some confusion. But generally some consensus about their meaning has been established. Doug and Ernest may talk about RM, but not about the theories of Weber, Reynolds, Froude or Strouhal. I have tried to figure out the surging phenomenon and Hydroptere and consulted the sites below:

Surging phenomenon: www.thefreedictionary.com/surging

1. A heavy billowing or swelling motion like that of great waves.
2.
a. Wave motion with low height and a shorter period than a swell.
b. A coastal rise in water level caused by wind.
3. The forward and backward motion of a ship subjected to wave action.

I start to understand a little bit more. Yes, if the canting-keel is subjected to forward-aft motion relatively to the boat this can cause problems. Doug and Ernest seem to include some resonance phenomenon and/or out-of phase behavior in the surging. In extreme cases the structural integrity perhaps may be challanged.

With the speed world-record boat Hydroptere it becomes more tricky:
Hydroptere: www.hydroptere.com/_en/

Doug: "Hydroptere does not use an incidence change of the foils to generate RM like wand controlled fully submerged foils do-similar to,say, Scat or the Rave."

Well, since the foils depth into the water varies due to waves, boat handeling an so on, the lateral area varies as well. This I understand. The "Scat or the Rave" is more problematic. Pop music seems to be involved. Again, a resonance phenomenon and/or out-of phase behavior may be at hand. In resonance phenomenon usually the damping puts the limit to the response. Obviously, the water creates damping, and the less the foils are submerged the bigger the "Scat or the Rave" problem may be. Perhaps, Doug have something here.

Bgulari, the other 4 intvented terms may be of interest to study. Can you please list them so we can see if a resonance phenomenon and/or out-of phase behavior is involved in those as well.

Regards,
Booster

 

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Gulari MISQUOTED me from a discussion on SA about how Hydroptere does NOT develop its RM*. In addition to that he said that the standard Bladerider configuration was a CANARD configuration-which I pointed out was incorrect. I'll give him this-he apologized for that remark.
He is, without a doubt, one of the best foiler sailors in the US. It will be interesting to see how he matches up against Rohan Veal.
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*Hydroptere is a surface piercing foiler and does not use differential wand control to change the lift on the main foils like fully submerged multifoilers do. Thats why it carries ballast in the windward ama whereas a fully submerged multifoiler needs no ballast. Lift changes on the mainfoils on Hydroptere when speed changes and when the boat heels.

 

Doug and Bgulari!

Bgulari earlier wrote of 4 intvented terms of Doug. They may be of interest to study, see post above. Can you please list them so we can see if a resonance phenomenon and/or out-of phase behavior is involved in those as well. Instability pehonomenon can be involved as well. Compare the propshaft in the automotive-industry in AWD systems. Yes, there are resonances, but instability-pheonomenon as well. Often one has to change from a two-diveded propshaft (cheap solution) to a three-devided (expensive solution) to avoid a phoenomenon referred to as high-tail-motion. Recently cumputer codes have managed to predict the high-tail-motion. Such vagely described pheonomenon can be involved in the 4 invented terms discussed, but may be possible to predict be computer codes.

Regards,
Booster

 

Booster:

Bgulari was referring to Mr. Lord's tendency to apply new disparaging labels to people he disagrees with. There is no list of four "new" technical terms describing foiling phenomena.

Mr. Lord's knowledge of foiling is encyclopedic in breadth, but based on anecdotal experience, radio controlled models and Internet research, not a strong engineering or science background. I'm certain you would have a better scientific discussion with Tom Speer here on Boatdesign.net.

Mr. Lord appears to have left boatdesign.net permanently, either by his own choice or being ejected by the Moderator for being in breach of the list etiquette rules. His behavior was confrontational and abusive quite frequently, with little respect for anyone other than those who agreed with him, and those who would perform unpaid technical work for him supporting his concepts.

It's quite sad that Doug could not learn to disagree without bad behavior, and that he refused to accept that although other people may disagree with him, they too could be right. There are many times on these pages where I've said, "Thanks, I'm wrong and I just learned something" - a phrase Doug would do well to embrace.

It would be nice if this thread regarding new foiling developments could continue - without the unbalanced hype.

--
Bill