New High Performance Monofoilers

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Dec 19, 2008.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Just got the newest(to me) issue of Seahorse(Jan.09) and inside is a picture of Julian Bethwaites foiling 49er undergoing tow testing. The boat appears to use the system pioneered by John Ilett with a foil on the daggerboard and on on the rudder and a bow wand.
    -------------
    As I can I will add pictures and use this thread to follow the progress of the number of new bi-foilers under development within existing classes and as experimental one offs. This is not a Peoples Foiler thread but will concentrate on high performance boats. The R Class, B14 class,49er class and others are currently under development. Cool!
     
  2. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 3,497
    Likes: 146, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2291
    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Is the foil on the bottom edge of the daggerboard to allow it to lift or is there a more clever arrangement?
     
  3. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Merry Christmas! Generaly, the foil on the daggerboard is a fully submerged foil and carries around 80% of the weight. When the the boat lifts,altitude is controlled by the wand which is a surface sensor tied into the mainfoil flap.
    Which is fairly clever- especially when the boat sails with only the daggerboard foil and rudder foil instead of the 3 or more foils every sailing hydrofoil had before about 1999 when John Ilett, Ian Ward and David Lugg sailed(on different boats)on just two foils for the first time in history.
     
  4. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    Doug, SimonN on Sailing Anarchy pointed out this is Frank's development project, and Julian is only helping to keep his father involved and active. SimonN was talking with Frank's grandson at the time, so the source was a little better than a magazine article. Simon also reported there was no intent to change the 49er class to integrate lifting daggerboard T-foils - this is a one-off project.

    The surprising thing is that you knew this and persisted to report this to the Boatdesign.net site as if this was a Bethwaite design foray into modifying the 49er class. Much the same can be said of the B14 development. People interested in the real story can follow up on Sailing Anarchy's Dinghy Anarchy forum. You keep letting your obsession alter reality.

    If you feel it necessary to report information, it would be best of you reported accurate information.
     
  5. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Read the Seahorse article before you team up with Simon N. I'll go with the accuracy of the magazine before that guy any day. And we know that Chris Turner is building a foiling B14. And Clive Everest is developing a twin daggerboard bi-foiler with an electronic control system. And there is a whole lot more. Stay tuned.
     
  6. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    And we know you you prefer reading other people's Internet posts to actually sailing. And your Internet-based "foiling" experience trumps the on-the-water experience of people who actually do it. And you post other people's photos of other people foiling repeatedly as confirmation of your expertise.

    We get it Doug. How long has it been since you have sailed a full size dinghy?

    Since you live in Florida, you should take advantage of your location and give yourself the present of going sailing. It's actually a lot more fun than being the Internet's biggest self appointed foiling cheerleader.

    Merry Christmas.
     
  7. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Doug,

    I'm really surprised that you bring this particular business to BoatDesign, when you know fully well that it was recently hashed at Sailing Anarchy. You disputed Simon N over there and now, you're looking to discredit him over here. Only trouble is, Doug, your antics were put-down rather soundly on SA by a group of serious, and highly regarded sailors that included Bora Gulari, current US Moth Champ.

    Simon's comeback to you when you disputed his relevant connections to the various classes and their so-called official foiling attempts was as follows, and I quote:

    "Doug

    I think it is totally reasonable that you can stick with your sources and I will stick with mine.* For instance, with the 49er, you rely on Seahorse, I will rely on having spoken to members of the Bethwaite Family who are actually involved in it! Julian might be helping on the project, but everybody in Sydney knows it is Frank's baby.

    As for the other points you think I am wrong with, lets just look at how I might know what is going on. I think it is fair to say I know rather a lot about what the 18' skiff class is doing. With the I14's, I sailed them for a few years and see the current world champion every week. I have been discussing where development and the class might go, ahead of Sydney hosting the Worlds in 12 months time. Then take the B14, a class I was International Vice President.
    So, which of my comments am I dead wrong about and what are your sources? Please don't quote things you have read on the web and in magazines because, and this really shouldn't be a surprise to you, they are often incorrect."

    Bora Gulari added this bit in support of Simon's reportage:

    "I hate to say this Doug but Frank is doing this with Julian and the reason is that to keep his dad's mind active. It is def not Julian's only project and I was there in Sydney with Simon."


    Simon then went on to correct a component of his positions in the interest of fairness and accuracy in reporting. This is something I have never seen you do on any topic. When caught-out, you would much rather try to ignore the fact and pretend it never happened. Simon's demonstration of class in the matter is an excellent standard.

    This is Christmas, Doug. Perhaps you could take a break from this hype thing, reconsider your manipulation tactics with info that is not true and come back from the Holidays with a positive sense of yourself without the relentless fluff?

    You have made some great contributions here, Doug and I would hope that the potential for that type of participation would continue.

    * Rather than a statement of equitable kindness. This was, in fact, a sarcastic glove in the face as Doug had gotten himself so far afield
     
  8. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 3,497
    Likes: 146, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2291
    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Oh dear, another ****-flinging contest, and such an interesting start to the thread too. I really don't want to poke through piles of excrement looking for nuggets of information on what I am actually interested in. I do hope this thread does not degenerate into yet another boring feud.

    Bistros: OK, so there's a battle going on elsewhere, why bring it here?

    Chris: I think your "Simon" gave us all great advice with "you can stick with your sources and I will stick with mine", why don't you take it? Nowhere in any of Doug's posts in THIS THREAD can I see anything to discredit anyone, no evidence of manipulation, just interesting stuff.

    Doug: for what its worth, please continue to bring us your reports. Please ignore the claque on this thread.

    All of you: you have, by all accounts, a perfectly good venue in which to take shots at each other. Keep it there. In general, if you should see a post and you think that another forum is relevant, just say so BRIEFLY and provide the link.
     
  9. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    Doug IS providing disinformation to the members here. Someone without benefit of reading the thread on Sailing Anarchy would read the "interesting start" to this thread and get the distinct impression that many high performance classes of sailboats were very interested in foiling. Nothing is further from the truth. Most high performance dinghies & skiffs today have specific prohibitions written into class rules.

    Doug brings the over-the-top hype with him.

    I'm all for new and accurate information about foiling from people who actually foil, and from people who actually build foilers. I don't need or want Doug to "spin" information available on the Internet to try to create the impression that foiling is a revolution about to take over small boat sailing. Sorry, but it isn't happening.
     
  10. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member


    Oh Dear... another Dougista is born into the world. How very poignant that you would choose this day to make your presence known in such a fashion.

    Incense, Myrrh and the Ancient Kayaker; the Holy Triumvirate of all things pontifical... ;-)
     
  11. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Thanks,AK. I'm tired of that kind of thing as well so I'm going to try to avoid responding. I'm going to add numerous pictures today of high performance monofoilers that have already been developed or where development continues. Here is the picture from Seahorse magazine(including the caption) of the Bethwaite foiling 49er undergoing towing tests in Sydney harbor: (click on the image to make it larger)
    Note: Chris Turner ,who I think works for Ovington boats, has said that he is developing a foiling B14 but several years ago was the first to try to foil a 49er.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    International 14's

    Most people probably know that the 14's are using a rudder foil that supports 25-30% of the sailing weight of the boat. What some people don't know is that the FIRST two person bi-foiler in the history of the world was an International 14 sailed in 1999 within months of John Iletts first sail of his foiling Moth.
    Many people may not realize that this first foiling 14 also used MANUAL altitude control using a twist grip tiller operating the flap on the rudder foil.
    Another first for David Lugg and Alan Smith who developed this boat. It is below with the blue spinnaker. The other I-14 pictures are of one of two 14 full flying foilers being developed in Switzerland. They use Fastacraft(John Ilett) foils:
    http://www.i14.ch/fastsailing/
    more: http://www.highperformancesailing.org/images/seahorse_article_jun05.pdf
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Electronic Foil Control: Clive Everest

    Clive Everest is famous for a bunch of things but well known for his development of the RS600(to be covered later). Now he has embarked on a project that integrates electronic control with a wand system. His boat is quite unique having twin daggerboards to support the main foil:
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    RS600FF-singlehanded trapeze foiler

    This boat has been developed by Full Force boats in the UK. It has beaten the Moth in some races and been beaten by the Moth. A new company carrying the full RS line says that they will be importing the 600FF into the US. The first singlehanded bi-foiler with a trapeze it is an interesting development:
     

    Attached Files:


  15. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 3,497
    Likes: 146, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2291
    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Thanks for the breath of fresh air Doug. Now I am accused of being a fan or something: as I reacall we have crossed swords on a few occasions, and I've enjoyed that.

    Merry Christmas to all, may your keyboards never melt or crack under the strain, and may your foils never point toward the sun!
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.