New FRP facility buildout

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by detourdog, Sep 1, 2020.

  1. detourdog
    Joined: Sep 2020
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    Location: Western Massachusetts, USA

    detourdog Junior Member

    Hey All,

    I’m lucky enough to have a climate controlled 30’ x 60’ room with ceiling ranging from 14’ to 29’.

    I also have all the appropriate tools and dust collection.

    What I’m really missing is a good FRP set-up.

    If left to my own devices I would do hand layup of many layers of unidirectional thin cloth. I ‘m attracted to working with a combination of s-glass and kevlar. I want to make sandwiches in between 1.3 mm 3-ply mahogony and a form of insulation.

    My ulitmate goal would be to build a whrram tiki 38 out of the materials described above.

    I expect it to take time and money. I know I can save some of both using this forum which is why I’m posting.

    Until today I ruled out any vacuum layup system.

    I want to use female molds building both hulls simultaneously and keeping them in the molds until the cabin top is attached.

    I would to get some feedback on lay-up methods to consider.
    Thanks,

    Be
     
  2. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: Barbados

    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Welcome to the Forum Detour Dog.

    I must admit that I am a bit baffled as to what you are wanting to achieve - and I suspect that many others on here are as well, hence why nobody has replied yet.

    You ultimate dream is to build a Tiki 38 - but with female moulds?
    Would it not be easier to simply build your first boat now as a Tiki 38 according to the standard / tried and tested plans?
    Tiki 38 Self-Build Boat Plans | James Wharram Designs https://www.wharram.com/shop/building-plans/tiki-designs/tiki38
     
  3. rxcomposite
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    rxcomposite Senior Member

    The first thing to do with climate controlled area is the circulation of air. Styrene vapor tends to deposit on the floor. You need exhaust fan near the floor and intake fans above. With female molds, styrene and other volatiles sink to the bottom and crevices. You need an auxiliary fan to blow away the volatiles otherwise your resin does not cure properly.
     
  4. detourdog
    Joined: Sep 2020
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    Location: Western Massachusetts, USA

    detourdog Junior Member

    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  5. detourdog
    Joined: Sep 2020
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    detourdog Junior Member


    Yes, i knew i need good ventilation the main room has a 30” x42” at flloor level. that exhausts through a 60” exhaust dict on the rooff. and 2 direct outside vents around 13”x40” .

    finally theree a possible 4th vent about 13’ off the floor.

    I was thinking during smelly periods i would work in a tent that exhausts through the roof.

    HBAC related question I have would be quartz lights in the ceiling to heat the space and maybe cure objects.

    I have been going through Jeorge epic infusion plan thread but have only made it to page 22.

    Which is really a great source. All the questions answered I didn’t know to ask.

    Thanks,

    Ben
     
  6. detourdog
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    detourdog Junior Member

    Here is a follow up question. I have a large exhaust vent (60" diameter) in the roof that will deposit the air at about 50' off the ground.
    Should I consider or does there exist air scrubbers to filter the volatiles and dust? I imagine I would want filters on the exhaust, any suggestions?

    Thanks,
    Ben
     
  7. rxcomposite
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    rxcomposite Senior Member

    I worked in an LR enviromentally controlled shipyard. Intake air is forced from the top and exhausted at the bottom. It is in fact an overkill. The floor has trenches dug out and covered by steel grating. The heavy air is sucked by a duct thru the trenches, passes thru a filter, and exhausted high up into the atmosphere. The idea is the smell/volatiles is forced to the floor to reduce inhalation of the vapor.
    It was very expensive to operate as it has humidity control as well. Imagine heating the air to reduce moisture, then cooling it.
    In another factory, the chemicals are stored in a separate place, fireproof, with water sprinklers overhead and CO2 fire extinguishers on standby.
     
  8. detourdog
    Joined: Sep 2020
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    detourdog Junior Member

    Great info. I will design the female mold tent thing to have a false floor that is a direct exhaust and I will force air in from the top.

    Thanks,

    Ben
     
  9. rxcomposite
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    rxcomposite Senior Member

    Lamination is always considered a clean, dust free, enviromentally controlled area. In assembly where dust will naturally occur due to cutting, sanding, trimming of cured part, it is not required to be enviromentally controlled, hence a different area. Dust filters are required for exhaust air. They can be dry filtered, centrifugal filtered, or fitted with water scrubbers depending on your local area ordinance.
     
  10. detourdog
    Joined: Sep 2020
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    Location: Western Massachusetts, USA

    detourdog Junior Member

    Thank you for another nice tip.

    I'm almost done with Jorge infusion plan thread. I'm definitely going to build an infusion set-up.
    For now I just have one large room so I will build raised platforms to level and rest the molds. This platform I will connect to our ventilation system while working and the Vacuum during clean-up. I will enclose each mold in a vinyl(?) tent.

    This way I can contain the dust. If I really had to I would make separate platforms for dust collecting and ventilation. I would rather not and I'm hoping that the learning curve on infusion will balance out with less sanding.

    This forum is a great resource and I will lean on it.

    Don't touch your face,

    Ben
     
  11. SamSam
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    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    I was in a boat mfgr in Minnesota that had infrared strip heating, not the lights. It had the strips mainly at the different work stations around the plant. Worked good from what I could tell.
     
  12. detourdog
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    detourdog Junior Member

    I believe I could rig them to go up in down for either room heating or part curing, so far I'm trying to stay away from thermoforming(?) I was also trying to stay away from vacuum infusion...

    Thanks for the feedback,

    Ben
     
  13. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    SamSam Senior Member

    I don't know where in FRP you would be doing thermoforming.

    The radiant heating I'm thinking of doesn't heat the room volume or air so much as it heats the things in the room. In the mfgr plant, the air was cool but rolls of glass etc were warm to the touch. I don't remember if they used it where the laminating and curing were done, I'm not sure it heats evenly or if it gets blocked so things in the radiant shadow would be too cool to cure evenly.

    I've read of heated molds for curing and epoxy post curing, it involved embedding bare radiant heat wire (like in a toaster) in the last layer of a mold. That was a long time ago and they now have radiant floor heating wire and controls that would probably work better. They also have specific mold heating products... Heated Fiberglass & Carbon Composite Molds – The Advanced Composites Group https://theadvancedcompositesgroup.com/commercial-general-industry/heated-molds/heated-fiberglass-carbon-composite-molds/
     
  14. detourdog
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    detourdog Junior Member

    I'm so averse to thermoforming I haven't really looked into it to know what is required. Before I got carried away by boats my hobby was radiant heating. The quartz heaters I'm heating with project IR to heat up the objects. I'm sure it's the same thing whatever one is trying to heat has to absorb IR.

    I just got Ken Hughs latest Design portfolio. I'm intrigued by parts of cylinder molding.

    Thanks for helping,

    Ben
     

  15. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Are you saying that the laminate would be in the center and the core material outside? The fiberglass always goes outside. It won't do much in the middle, except add weight. The Wharram TIKI is designed for plywood construction, with a layer of fiberglass on the outside for waterproofing and abrasion resistance. If you want to laminate a hull, a TIKI would be a waste of time and money. It makes more sense to buy a design that will end up with a boat that has higher value. Otherwise, stick to the cheap and simple that Wharram is famous for.
     
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